A couple weeks ago I posted on Steemit an essay titled Thoughts on Women, Oppression and Porn. In that essay I shared some well-established but little-understood conclusions of evolutionary psychology, namely that women (in general and not in every instance) have been endowed by evolution with tremendous but mostly unconscious social power by virtue of their sex appeal. I further explained how men (in general and not in every instance), aided oddly enough in recent times by traditional feminists, have worked to deprive women of the social influence that results from their sex appeal under the pretext of protecting women's "honor" or "humanity". I noted how both men and traditional feminists insist that it is dishonorable for women to exploit their inherent sexuality to gain advantage in life, and how both have sought to suppress their ability to do so.
Last night fellow Steemster @veralynn posted a thoughtful critique of my original essay in which she made several counterpoints. The purpose of this post is to address her counterpoints as best as I can.
(Photo credit: Me. Subject: @steemed-open)
The substance of @veralynn's criticism of my thoughts begins with this comment by her:
Not all women (people) want to be empowered sexually, so the ideal that it is “woman’s birthright” to hold sexual power is a sexist stereotype. Implying that (through a born-male, heteronormative perception) women are purely sexual influencing beings is a primitive ideal that helps uphold a patriarchal society. It is borderline Freudian.
In making this comment, @veralynn uses a common rhetorical technique that's actually an informal logical fallacy. Specifically, she slays a straw man, for I never contended that "all" people want to be empowered sexually, nor did I ever say that women are "purely sexual influencing beings", or anything remotely approaching it. Rather, I was quick to anticipate this particular straw man rebuttal to my argument when I wrote the following as the opening paragraph of my original essay:
Disclaimer: In this post I'm going to talk about men and women in general terms and "on the average". I understand completely that not every man is stereotypically male, that not every woman is stereotypically female, and that gender identity can be fluid and even binary. Nonetheless, science still makes meaningful and important distinctions between men and women "on the average", and that's what I discuss here.
So, @veralynn is actually correct that not everyone wants to be sexually empowered and that women are not purely sexual influencing beings, it's just irrelevant to my original contention. And to the extent that she intends to suggests that because we can't make distinctions between men and women in every instance we shouldn't make them in any instance, well...humanity would be in dire straights if we applied similar logic to every dataset.
Next, since my original conclusions flow pretty naturally from the findings of evolutionary psychology, @veraylynn seeks to undermine the significance of those findings. She contends, for example, that:
Evolutionarily speaking, humans are capable of developing different behaviours genetically and adaptively. People are slowly realizing that we aren’t just monkeys, purely motivated by mating and hetero reproduction. This is evolution: the part of the mind that built civilizations, art, invented technology, and questioned society.
However, in making this argument, she does little more than successfully slay another straw man. Evolutionary psychology does not contend that humans are incapable of "developing different behaviors genetically and adaptively." Nor does it contend that people are just "monkeys" who are "purely motivated by mating and...reproduction". And, in fact, evolutionary psychology explains precisely how the rise of "civilizations, art, [and] invented technology" was mostly a consequence of human pursuit of hard-wired biological urges and drives rather than springing from some other more enlightened "part of the mind".
Evolutionary psychology (and all forms of psychology, actually) simply insists that humans are motivated as much or more by unconscious factors--biological urges, societal conditioning, cultural values, mental scripts and habits, paradigms, etc.--as by conscious willpower or authentic self-expression. In fact, science has shown pretty conclusively that what humans perceive subjectively to be free will is often just an ex post facto rationalization of a preexisting but unconscious urge or motive.
In short, evolutionary psychology does not contend that humans are incapable of overcoming our unconscious biological urges, at least for short periods of time and in isolated instances, just that they very rarely do so, at least not en masse. Let's take hunger as an example. Hunger is a deeply-rooted biological urge that has a huge impact on human motivations and actions. Humans will go to extraordinary lengths to satisfy hunger--they will work, they will steal, they will fight, they will migrate, etc. Can humans, via an exercise of will, and in pursuit of some political or social agenda, choose instead to starve to death rather than to pursue food? Of course they could. But does this happen? Very, very rarely. So rarely that studying these outliers is of little use in predicting the conduct of humans as a whole.
Does @veralynn deny that humans as a whole will go to great lengths to satisfy hunger, or that much of society is organized around this basis human urge? Or does she instead contend that the deep, biological drive for sex is somehow different from the drive for hunger--that humans will organize their society around food but not sex? If the latter, then she fails to explain how or why or to offer up any evidence in support of her contention. And, if not, then her implied argument that biological urges are insufficient to explain human motivation and society collapses.
Despite arguing that humans are motivated by a more noble "part of the mind" than unconscious, biological urges, @veralynn inadvertently concedes the contrary by labeling my original arguments (actually, her own straw man version of my original arguments) "borderline Freudian". By that she meant this: Whilst "my" sexist viewpoints were ostensibly anchored in the findings of science, they were (she implies) really just an after-the-fact rationalization of my own secret and deep-seeded dominant male libido. Perhaps @veralyann thinks it's only males that are "monkeys"?
Toward the end of her post, she again attempts to undermine the findings of evolutionary psychology when she says:
Note that while I do not agree with the evolutionary psychology ideologies stated in the article in question, I do agree that there is a problem with gender discrimination that must be confronted.
Ideologies? Really!? I cited books by noted and respected evolutionary scientists, not political ideologues. Evolutionary psychology is only an "ideology" like evolution itself is an "ideology". The findings of evolutionary psychology are, in fact, very well-supported by scientific research across multiple species (not just humans) and disciplines, much more so than any other branch of psychology. Nobody (by which I mean almost nobody) who lacks conscious or unconscious religious motivations denies the findings of evolution today. And similarly, nobody who lacks a conscious or unconscious political/social agenda denies the findings of evolutionary psychology today. Despite this, @veralynn offers up absolutely no rational basis for her "disagreement" with its conclusions. Clearly, her beef lies primarily in the fact that evolutionary psychology undermines her traditional feminist political and social agenda and not with the underlying scientific process itself.
At this point I'd like to move on to a point upon which @veralynn and I come a little closer to agreeing--on differentiating between sexual empowerment and sexual objectification. She offers up this helpful distinction:
If the person being subjected has the power, than it is empowerment.
However, if that person has little or no power, they are being objectified.
Ask yourself: Is the person aware and consenting to sexualizing the situation?
If the answer is No, it is most likely objectification.
If the answer is Yes, then it is definitely empowering!
While I agree that nobody has the right to be physically molested, sexually or otherwise, without their consent, I have two issues with her proposed test. The first is that it seems to suggest that "power" is something given by others or granted by society. It's not! Power is something that is assumed. Power results from one "owning" oneself completely. Power is inherent to the individual and is either exercised or abandoned by choice. Women will not, in fact cannot, gain power and influence by simply shaming men into ceding it or by lobbying governments into bestowing it. They will have it only when they grasp it--when they claim their birthright for themselves, and when they seek to lovingly exploit every natural advantage that they have without shame or compromise, when they market all of their natural gifts the same way that an engineer does or a pro athlete does.
In short, a woman being ogled by men almost invariably has the power. The only issue is whether she recognizes it or not, and whether she exploits it adeptly or not. If she fails to recognize or exploit it, then the larger question is...why? Certainly some women may simply be naturally disinclined to exercise the power, but that's (evolutionarily speaking) a definite minority. Instead, I contend that women concede their sexual power largely because they have been conditioned by men and by feminists to overlook it, or worse to be ashamed of it and lay it down. Women have been conned for centuries into thinking that when men are attracted to them, it's actually the men who have the power and are being "dominant". What a joke!! When an employer seeks to engage the services of a highly-desirable and in-demand engineer, who has the "power"? The employer? Hardly.
My second issue with her test is the idea that nobody should be "objectified" without consent. In my view that's simply pie-in-the-sky fantasy land type of thinking. Evolution programmed us to be sexually aroused by certain things (mainly other humans), and that's true regardless of whether the thing knows we are aroused by it or not. You being aroused by me doesn't "objectify" or "dehumanize" me in any possible way, even if I'm unaware of it or I'm powerless to quell your lust--well, unless I've been conned into thinking that I should feel "objectified" or "dehumanized" as a result. But, what if instead I had been taught that I was empowered by the attention and I knew how to exploit it?
In short, I'm grateful for @veralynn engaging in dialogue on this important subject. I hope my comments above are taken constructively and are useful to the reader in interpreting and weighing our two prior posts.
I really could hardly disagree more on this point. As an individual outside of the context provided by society, any person has almost no power beyond their direct physical capacity to manipulate the world around them.
It is society and not ourselves that grants any degree of meaningful power -that is social currency. It seems absurd on its face to suggest that power is an innate feature of a person rather than something bestowed by society; it is a direct contradiction of the core of feminist and Marxist theory.
Do politicians end up in positions of power because they are intrinsically powerful? Or is it because they understand how to game the incentive structure enforced by society in order to maximize personal gain?
It is obviously the latter, if the efforts of the ruling class to maintain power ceased, hierarchical domination of society by that class would end soon thereafter since they have no intrinsic power, but rather leverage their social power to maintain control.
In much the same sense that politicians dominate society with the incentive structures in place, so too has the patriarchy dominated both men and women by enforcing the ideals of masculinity and femininity which have done great harm to us all. To suggest that gender relations can be reduced to our evolutionary context is to deny the social context which we are all living through this very instant.
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I believe that "power" in this case, was meant to refer specifically and perhaps only to the female sex appeal discussed early in the article. To recap, the ogled woman should be perceived to have power over the ogler. Ogled women who admit that they are in a powerful position in relation to oglers can be said to own that specific power. I don't think the author's intention was to reduce the absolute meaning of the word "power," but only to refer to a certain type that is often misunderstood. The social currency wielded by politicians and based on built reputation simply isn't the sort of power being referred to here.
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If, solely in the situation 'female sex appeal', a person, the ogler, is demonstrating their power, how are we expecting the ogled to demonstrate their authority in the situation? Or, how should they respond to emphasize their power in the situation if their desired outcome is to have the ogler stop because the ogled is uncomfortable?
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Nobody is entitled to a lack of discomfort.
You demonstrate your power the same way that a desirable engineer who is being pursued by an employer demonstrates his/her power. You name your "price" and accept the offer, or you decline the offer and walk away. Either way, you are in control.
By "naming your price", I don't necessarily mean truly selling sex, so please don't go there. I simplify mean getting something valuable in return for the attention you are receiving. There are a million ways to do that. The make-up tutorial here on Steemit is a recent example of one creative and effective way. Do you blame her for exploiting her got given assets to get upvotes? If so, do you blame Michael Jordan for exploiting his? If not, what's the qualitative difference between the two? In my view, there is none.
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This is a great question for @sean-king, who will answer it better than I can. One ad I happened to see on youtube showed a female photographer who began taking pictures of the cat-callers. I don't think that's a great example of owning power, though. I'd describe that more as turning the tables. I will say that I relate to being uncomfortable with that kind of attention and have had some pretty far fetched experiences, even as a child, where I felt I was hated when it turned out I just stood out in a provocative way that wasn't my fault. Coming to view that as power instead of feeling victimized is one of the best things a person can do for their self-esteem, I believe. Just refuse to think of it as them making you uncomfortable. You are captivating. You are enchanting.
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"Power can be taken, but not given. The process of the taking is empowerment in itself." --Gloria Steinem
In making this statement, Gloria was repeating a common aphorism, and it's an aphorism for a reason--because it's true.
You seem to confuse power with leadership or influence. Power confers leadership and influence. Leadership and influence do not confer power. One cannot be a leader without first being powerful--without first having the physical and mental constitution capable of sustaining the burdens of leadership.
Power is ultimately about self-mastery. Anyone who has mastered the self is powerful. So much so that the empowered hermit master is a mythical archetype--Jesus, Buddha, Yoda, Obi Wan Kenobi, etc.
So, society doesn't grant power. Society only grants leadership. And except for corrupt systems, it grants leadership only to the powerful--those who have mastered their self.
The "societal context" of which you speak is itself a result of the "evolutionary context" of which I speak. Take some away from studying feminism and Marx and read up on evolutionary biology. You'll be astounded by its findings, and by how well-supported they are.
Whether and how they choose to use or exploit this power is a differen story
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@sean-king says,
Leadership IS power. Power is not a property of a person, it is a feature that arises as a result of social context.
I understand evolutionary biology and I don't believe it in any way contradicts feminism or Marxism, nor do I see why anybody else would. Like @veralynn said:
I could hardly have stated it better myself. One of the things that makes human beings so extraordinary is that we have transcended the state of nature and no longer must depend on our sexuality or physical prowess as a hunter/gatherer to survive, and our social interactions ought to, and should reflect that. We aren't cave-people anymore, and it is time to act like it.
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Because you believe that power comes from others, you will never have said power, and you will never be a leader, my friend. Leadership is to power. Leadership is the result of exercising power.
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That is fine with me, I'm an anarchist. I seek neither to rule nor to be ruled. It is hierarchy itself which has poisoned society.
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Read up on the latest scientific studies regarding free will, or rather the absence thereof. We are definitely slaves to the unconscious. The only debate among scientists these days on this subject centers around whether we are completely under the control of the unconscious, or just mostly so.
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This is incredibly important. We are not slaves to the subconscious.
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Dear lord, thank you for this reply.
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Hey @sean-king, thanks for the response.
I would like to address that it seems as though you feel my article was a personal attack on your beliefs. Note that I was merely giving a female influencing opinion on the differences between empowerment and objectification.
Discussion is important, but I do not appreciate being an assumed misandrist. Consider rephrasing questions like this, as it sounds like you have a different agenda, opposed to a debate.
Here is another point you make even further rationalizes my original argument:
You don't feel objectified by said situation because it doesn't objectify you. That was my whole point of the article-- even the title asks the key question, "Is This Empowerment, Or Objectification?"
Again, thank you for the response. Please take my article in question as constructive criticism for how we interact/treat/talk about women in the future, as that was the idea when creating it.
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369 is all i have to say. A whale(s) know you're adding real value. thanks for speaking your mind. And actually @sean-king is brave to bring up his personal beliefs on a subject such as this.
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great discourse
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Thanks again. I did not take your response as a personal attack in any way, and I did not intend mine to be one. To the extent it came across that way, my apologies. I sometimes debate like a trial lawyer--with passion and conviction and hopefully logic. I did not mean to insult you personally.
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No need for apologies. It was a wonderful discussion that we should see more of!
One last thing I would like to edit and reiterate:
I still don't believe that psychology undermines feminism politically, or socially.
Thank you, again, for the discussion. I look forward to reading your future articles. :)
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As I said already correlation is not equal to causality. I know I'm a little late in the discussion so please forgive my tardy response.
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I don't understand you final point about objectification. Are you suggesting that your arousal is only objectification if I feel objectified by it? That objectification is not objective but rather is determined solely by the mental state and self-image of the object? I would suggest the opposite. if you are going to accuse someone of objectifying you, then it's their mental state, their intent, that is determinative, not your reaction to it.
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Everyone individually decides what feels objectifying. Objectification occurs when a person feels they have been treated more as an object than as a person, and when that is is different for different people.
There is not, by definition, an objective, fixed length list of things that are objectifying. It is up to us, both at the individual and at the social level to try to be more aware of the phenomenon of objectification and actively avoid it.
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Objectification is defined as the seeing and/or treating a person, usually a woman, as an object.
I think it can be argued that if a person feels victimized or objectified, they could very well be. That obviously isn't the only factor when we ask ourselves, "is this objectifying?" Objectification can be classified by many other telling categories.
My final point was to illustrate how some of your questions are rhetorical. Since your first sentence said you aren't objectified by the hypothetical-- well, then it's probably not objectifying. However, that's not a realistic standpoint of how these situations usually play out.
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Great points. I agree with you as I personally have been adversely affected by objectification. I dislike it altogether. I see that it causes boys to feel that they have a right to abuse girls and women, that is the bad side of objectification.
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Correlation is not equal to causation.
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more on thoughts on objectification
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I think we see it happening because in web, mostly there are men.
It is obvious there are women also, but now we can see something strange, because in internet , insulting a woman is acceptable by many people.
It is very stupid, but i think that internet is a place where hate is #1 thanks to "anonymous" users.
They think being "anonymous" (actually they are not if someone really wants to track them) gives them right to insult the others.
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My normally sweet girlfriend complained about SteemIt being open on my screen, calling it "the women spreading their legs site again". I get that you're going for max clickbait, but come the hell on. How low can you go.
Please make the broad with her legs spread go away from the top of my SteemIt feed.
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Ever heard of "manspreading". Tell your wife it's not just for men anymore.
And that "broad" is my wife. Do you regularly call women 'broads', or just sexually empowered ones? And do you even know what the term means?
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I chose the image purposefully and not just as click bait. If you read my post you would get the symbolism.
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It's still clickbait and a cheap trick that you didn't really need in this post. You could've at least used a more SFW picture as the leading picture and included the current picture further down, that way we wouldn't all have to see your wife spreading her legs everytime we open steemit.com..
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I'm truly surprised that you find that image to be even remotely NSFW. That you do says much more about you than it does me. However, to the extent that you and your wife find the image to be sexual and you want to repress/suppress it as a result (for instance, by the downvote you gave this post and also the your suggestion to use something more "SFW"), you simply reinforce the point of my post--men and "feminist" women go out of their way to suppress powerful expressions of female sexuality and to prevent them from exploiting sex appeal for their benefit.
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I'm male and have to say that I am against utilising women. Women and men are both human being and equal. We life in 2016 and not 142 A.D
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wow. I agree.
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Wow, I don't agree.
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How is it that you don't agree with
?
I really don't see how a decent person finds that disagreeable.
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First, the joke part to your reponse.
You can always masterbate.
Second, the ironic part of "wow I don't agree".
If someone with a simple "wow I agree" can respond, then I can simply reply with the opposite point of view.
Third the Orwellian part is sellabelle with a reputation of 9 can respond away way she wants, but I with a reputation of -5 has to STFU.
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Personally, I'm just glad that this is the type of debates that we can read on steemit! That shows the quality :)
Thanks @sean-king!
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Word.
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Ha ha :)
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First of all you should be sure that your posts are valuable, man I have read most of your posts, you are a good writer and you are giving a lot of new info that really can help people, critique is in human nature and any successful person is attacked by others, you should be happy because it's a sign of success and you are free to talk and write about any thing you find it helpful for people, any way don't loose faith and keep giving your followers good information , thank you
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Thank you for setting such a high standard of discourse here @sean-king! I love the way you accurately called out straw man arguments and educated while still earnestly engaging in discussion. Masterfully done.
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#ILOVEMEN And I love being ogled most of the time. Especially when I dress up and hang out in swanky lounges here in NYC. But when sexuality is translated into sexual dominance/violence that is not invited and being offered by emotionally unstable humans. These are two separate issues.
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Great debate. I very much appreciate the time and effort that so obviously went into this post. I also thank @veralynn for taking the time to debate the issue with you. Keep up the good work. This is the type of content I personally believe is worthy of the notice it is receiving. I'd urge people to give @veralynn some votes as well, for even if you may not agree with all she says, or perhaps you do, it is clear that she has put forth some thought in the reply and it takes more than one person to produce content like this.
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That is very much appreciated! I am just thankful to see so many different people having a discussion. I look forward to @sean-king's future articles and photography, and I hope he looks forward to my "controversial" articles and opinions as well. :)
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@sean-king I am finding these conversation incredibly worthwhile. This is a subject of great interest in my world.
One comment you made that I would like to point out because I strongly disagree with it , is the following one regarding the importance of outliers, "So rarely that studying these outliers is of little use in predicting the conduct of humans as a whole."
Quite simply from my point of view the outliers are often the most powerful forces of change. In fact without them, it may well just be that change is impossible.
By studying the main "core" group you see how people are currently acting, by studying the outliers it is very likely you are looking at the very messengers of the future.
Elon Musk, Einstein, Harriet Tubman, MLK, Da Vinci , Mozart, Newton, Gandi and on and on.
All outliers by definition and all bearers of the new code of human potential. In fact this very site is an outlier right now. Cryptocurrency itself is still an outlier (although much less than a few years ago)
The problem is it really hard to study ouliers due to the variation, it is easy to study big crowds of like things.
I happen to know personally a lot of free thinking, outlier types, it is amazing how much influence they have.
Best and looking forward to more deep articles such as this one.
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Thank you for the constructive feedback. I should clarity that I was using the word "outlier" in a very limited context specifically referring to those people who, through sheer exercise of will power, overcome their innate biological urges for extended periods of time. I very much agree with your comments above, which used the word "outlier" in a slightly different context than I originally intended. Well said!
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@sean-king , you might remember our lengthy discussions about blockchains a couple of weeks ago. At that time I really struggled with your logic and way of thinking.
But reading this post was a completely different experience - it is very well argued and your points seem perfectly logical to me. Also, your arguments are very consistent and nicely support each other. I really appreciated your writing this time.
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I do remember. Glad I'm articulating myself better now!
You may be proven right on the whole Ethereum thing, but I'm still doubtful. The rise in price of ETC is explained as much by miners gaming the system as by the market expressing a political preference for one versus the other. It's fascinating to see how this plays out though!
Thanks for your kind comments.
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If only the girls from chaturbate would know about steemit they wouldn't be so naked. Actually lets not tell them at all :P
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Fun fact! I actually used to (and still do) cam. Yet one of my article's got to the fp of Steemit. Women can be valued for their intellect and sexuality. Weird concept, right?
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Absolutely! Contrary to what both men and traditional feminists teach, there's nothing inconsistent between being highly intelligent and also exploiting one's sex appeal. Just like there's nothing inconsistent between being a great athlete and also having a great intellect.
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:)
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Yes your right and you are proof that :)
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Great post and more to the point, thank you for trying to explain objectification. No one has the right to abuse a situation or an individual.
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@sean-king, how do you feel about comments like this in regards to your wife?
Is this not objectifying?
What about this?
I think it's easy to tell which statements could be empowering or objectifying to the subject.
Psychology does not excuse sexism. This is not merely about porn or freedom of expression... the true issue, which I note in my article is institutionalized sexism, and gender inequality.
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He's probably just glad a bunch of people like that came in with their upvotes...
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Male are weird , they struggle to come out of that thing and after a while they struggling again to go in there . male are so complex living things .
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ha ha! this struck me as quite funny and what an odd thought???
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I really think it should be: Female are weird , they struggle to come out of that thing and after a while they struggling again to go in there . Female are so complex living things .
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People** :)
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Only PUAs believe in evolutionary psychology. I think they invented it.
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👍nice post @sean-king
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do you want to hang out later today?
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:-)
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That's great! I like your posts, booth are very constructive and useful. Thank you @sean-king and @veralynn
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"The first is that it seems to suggest that "power" is something given by others or granted by society."
You're kidding right?
"Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses..." - Dennis
Power is absolutely granted by society. It may not be the only path to power, but society itself has an overwhelming power and often grants that power to a figurehead. In the case of this subject matter men are often considered more powerful, more rational, and better than women... which both detracts from their complaints AND puts them in positions where a man can exert his will despite her wishes.
To whit: Have you ever just been feeling like shit, and not wanted anyone to see you that way? No imagine people, absolutely everyone around you, stared at you anyway. This is what women deal with... except for the added threat that they are physically weaker than the people staring, and would most likely be unable to defend themselves if they decided to move on from simple staring.
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"Power can be taken, but not given. The process of the taking is empowerment in itself." --Gloria Steinem
In making this statement, Gloria was repeating a common aphorism, and it's an aphorism for a reason--because it's true.
You seem to confuse power with leadership or influence. Power confers leadership and influence. Leadership and influence does not confer power. One cannot be a leader without first being powerful--without first having the physical and mental constitution capable of sustaining the burdens of leadership.
Power is ultimately about self-mastery. Anyone who has mastered the self is powerful. So much so that the empowered hermit master is a mythical archetype--Jesus, Buddha, Yoda, Obi Wan Kenobi, etc.
So, society doesn't grant power. Society grants leadership. And except for corrupt systems, it grants leadership only to the powerful.
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"One cannot be a leader without first being powerful--without first having the physical and mental constitution capable of sustaining the burdens of leadership."
Tell that to anyone with a terrible middle manager. Or anyone watching Trump blunder his way into the front running for the GOP. Or to these 11 rules crowned while they were still in diapers: http://mentalfloss.com/article/12252/11-monarchs-crowned-while-they-were-diapers
There's really no shortage of rulers throughout history who absolutely had power, yet were not physically or mentally capable of handling it. These usually create the worst atrocities in history.
So yes, society absolutely does grant power. Power can also be taken, however usually society resents that and works against it.
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Evolutionary psychology has one major gap: It derives all it's assumptions from current culture. From everything I've seen on the subject, they project our current society onto the past and make their judgments from that starting point.
Here's the problem: For a huge portion of our evolution, our current societies did not exist. They see our current women, who seek marriage and monogamy, and project that onto the past... forgetting that tribal humans hunted and gathered as groups, and were largely socialist, sharing the gains among the entire tribe. This leads them to conclusions such as "women aren't sexual" or "women seek a provider" when in fact they are ignoring the deeper biological drives.
Frankly, I think evolutionary psychology is almost completely bogus.
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This is simply untrue. I encourage you to study evolutionary psychology and read the books cited in my original article. Evolutionary psychology is anchored in the findings of anthropology, archaeology, biology, etc. it seeks to explain the behavior of humans throughout all ages, even prehistoric times, and it does so quite well.
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Yeah, that above comment is only a limited perception with nothing to back it up. Mere speculation, uninformed opinion at best.
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OK then explain something to me. I readily admit that I'm no expert on evolutionary psych... yet whenever I hear monogamy discussed, evolutionary psych is used to point out that women seek out a "good provider."
Yet, whenever I read/watch anything in anthropology about tribal culture... the men all hunt as a group, and the women all gather as a group. Food is shared more or less equally among the tribe while elders actually teach and watch over the children.
So why would a woman care specifically about "a good provider?" That idea seems rooted in modern day societies (or at least post-agrarian ones) where a man earns a living to support his family. It's a fundamentally different model for families than we would have had during most of our actual evolution.
Side note: New to steem... do you not get notifications on replies to comments? I just happened to see these looking through my wallet trying to figure things out.
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Great point! I get where you're coming from now.
There are two schools of thought among evolutionary psychologists. I'll call them the orthodox view and the minority view. To your point, the orthodox view has indeed been influenced in many ways by modern customs. The minority view (which is gaining) is critical of the orthodox view for this reason and others.
The minority view, which I think answers your question directly, is best laid out in the book Sex at Dawn. It explains communal/tribal living quite well and contradicts the orthodox view.
Currently there's not built-in notification on replies, though that's coming. For now you can at least see all your replies in one place. Just tap the circle at the top right of your web browser page and select "Recent Replies".
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Fair enough, I guess put me down for the minority view then!
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Women:
Empowering when they like it...
Sexism when they don't.
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Uh no actually you don't get it.
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Both images are sexist assumptions.
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And?
Almost as if you're trying to insinuate that sexist assumptions could never be correct.
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I didn't insinuate that. That doesn't excuse it. Ideals like that are harmful to both men and women.
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Why don't you set aside some time and see if you can prove that, in a separate post.
Just so we're on the same page, a quote from a random washed up Gloria Steinem of the latter days does not qualify as proof of anything. But if you're interested in putting in the mental effort to show that what you think is right, thinking it through and showing how your thoughts follow one from the other, then you're very welcome to try.
If you send me an invite, I will give you the best, most scathing critique you've ever read about it and the world will greatly profit from our association.
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Sure, I'd love to go into more detail on that subject.
EDIT: here are my thoughts.
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This is exactly like going in to a Black Lives Matter protest and screaming "NO, ALL LIVES MATTER!" It's not wrong, but it misses the whole point.
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LOL
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psychology is not an exact science. these things you talking about can't be proven.
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Personally I feel woman are objectified and the trend appears to be getting worse while many give up and "become" how they are treated there are many still willing to fight, websites such as chaturbate I feel don not help a woman's cause at all and its a sorry sight to see so many allow themselves to become objects for mere pennies.
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You have no understanding of how the process of conditioning occurs, sir.
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Came in for the porn talk, stayed for the catfight
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great insights. thought provoking
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I was offered sex with a 21 year old girl today. In exchange, I was supposed to advertise some kind of bathroom cleaner. Of course I declined, because I am a person with high moral standards and strong willpower. Just as strong as Ajax, the super strong bathroom cleaner. Now available with scented lemon or vanilla.
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nice content upvoted
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Me too can found not-a-erotic-but-close picture and post it. Well done.
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beautiful post and you understand how each right would, I believe when others see that you are better as they try to beat you, I do not know English but translated with Google
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Im pretty sure you pwned her..
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Good Post
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This is quite informative, I’ll recommend to friends. I really enjoyed reading this.
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WOW !!!
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Everything has its purpose.
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Great post but I couldn't read the whole thing. It essentially nerded out on paragraph one and continued from there. It was not easy to read. I would say only someone in college or in this line of work would stop to read this. I see a lot of work and effort went into it. Im guessing your either a college student, extreme feminist or work as a psychologist/therapist. Either way. I commend you for the time and effort but I am a general joe blow (and yes I am a woman) who wanted to read this but was completely turned off by the way its written.
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Which article are you referring to?
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My post above, I think.
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I am referring to the original post. If you'd like to improve your writing style, my suggestion was to make it easier for the lay person to read. To soulsistashakti, I would expect nothing less from someone clearly sitting behind a computer but then again, people feel free to say what they like through the protection of a screen.
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LOL! Go to the library...lol WTF :)
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I must say fascinating reading. I must congratulate for exploring such a crucial and vital topic especially now. Thank you.
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very interesting post. Thanks)
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Wow, this picture makes you look great!
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A very interesting read! Thank you for sharing!!!
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yeahh like sex
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Thanks @sean-king. Constructive debate is always good.
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I just came here because you're opening your legs and almost showing your what-nots!
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wow..
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This article along with the one you debate simply demonstrates that social sciences are not at all sciences but interpretive.
This needs to stick in the heads of people. Social Sciences are concerned more with average medians. How a population should behave. Political correctness is the main drive
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This is very well written and laid out. Keep up the great work, Sean!
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very interesting
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Great info @sean-king!
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What's the matter, can't you take a little joke.
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LMAO
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