Announcing the Social Blockchain Working Group

jarvie (70) · 5 years ago

I want to like this but i have some issues. In this sensitive time where several groups are already trying to figure out solutions to the apparent hostile activities of Tron that apparently pushed many of you from steemit inc... you decide to put more uncertainty into this whole situation. I'm guessing it's not intentional and I'm uncertain if it will be fully problematic.

You gave Not actual solutions but an announcement that you're gonna take a hack at it... with no time frame and no specifics.

I think many of you are very capable obviously and learning from steem's journey could probably lead you to do wonderful things. And in theory you could have something soooo much better ... on paper. But that doesn't always translate... and here you cast doubt on what everyone else is ACTUALLY doing... not planning on doing, but really actually doing right now. It just feels like I worry that people hear "hey don't try to fix anything we're gonna give a shot at it eventually". There is something to be said about everything steem can do even in it's flawed way and I don't want to see people stop posting just because they think another group is gonna have something better... MAYBE... EVENTUALLY.

I support groups working on different things but I just want the rest of the audience reading this to understand that this isn't a concrete promise, this isn't an actual blockchain, this isn't anything until it actually happens. We can cheer them on and then let the market place of ideas decide if their time was worth it.

$6.62

18 votes

valued-customer (67) · 5 years ago (edited)

"...here you cast doubt on what everyone else is ACTUALLY doing..."

I am a bit mystified at this doubt claim. All I read they are doing is meeting to discuss how the code can be improved. If that somehow casts doubt on Steempeak and the excellent work you've been doing there, I missed that completely. If you're referring to casting doubt on some other actions being taken, I missed how their statement is a comment on anything else, except that there's almost certainly going to be a hardfork, and we'd better be ready.

"...meeting over the last few days to discuss various ideas for improving existing blockchain frameworks."

I am kind of surprised at the strong reactions I am reading in the comments here, and really feel I'm missing some essential information. That makes me feel incompetent to rationally judge the current situation.

Any light you could share would be very appreciated.

Thanks!

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andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago

This is exactly how we meant this to be interpreted. Definitely not trying to confuse people or encourage them to stop posting. Just wanted to get information out there as soon as we could.

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valued-customer (67) · 5 years ago

I reckon open communications is critical more than ever now that we face overt and covert threats on Steem. Folks may not think of it, but it's almost a certainty that others are deceiving us regarding their intentions and purposes during this crisis.

Folks that state clearly what they intend and do that will provide obvious refugia when the confusion of deception stirs the community.

Thanks!

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anyx (69) · 5 years ago

Happy to help advise on design. I don't know at all what will come next, but let's hope we can avoid further division during these uncertain times.

$5.04

14 votes

bobinson (63) · 5 years ago

👆

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andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago

Agreed

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berniesanders (77) · 5 years ago (edited)

So, you basically announced an announcement?

Congrats, you've failed at your job on day 1.

$2.35

trumpman (72) · 5 years ago (edited)

Clearly Justin taught them a thing..or two.

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coininstant (66) · 5 years ago (edited)

Lol yeah, thanks for pointing that out! What a scam i invested in steemit and they pull this trick and now are like invest in our next one! I’m done investing in social media blockchains, too complicated for me!! Unless they gonna give me fork coins to move with, count me out!!

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5 votes

phusionphil (66) · 5 years ago

A partnership was announced, with all the discourse in the community, how can we judge them for appealing to their judgement?

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berniesanders (77) · 5 years ago

You find an announcement coming from the guy who did NOTHING but shill exactly what @ned told him to for the past 3+ years "appealing"? That's fucking sad.

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7 votes

geekgirl (72) · 5 years ago

A bit too harsh...Ned has fooled everybody...well, except for you....but almost everybody.

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tuck-fheman (74) · 5 years ago

well, except for you

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geekgirl (72) · 5 years ago

You too. Ned failed to fool you as well. :)

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ats-david (74) · 5 years ago

Also me!

geekgirl (72) · 5 years ago

Of course! You would be at the top of the list. We should make an “Undeceived List”.

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phusionphil (66) · 5 years ago

I am a casual steem user, I blog daily but I dont have time to follow what's going on with each witness personally.

Is there a certain post you think would convince me that this individual doesnt have the best interest of a decentralized social credit system like steem?

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berniesanders (77) · 5 years ago

Yes, see every single post made on behalf of Steemit. All of the lies contained within those posts were put on this blockchain by @andrarchy. How does that work for you?

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phusionphil (66) · 5 years ago

So he is like neds secretary?

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deniskj (63) · 5 years ago

Bernie, why are you always pissed off??🙃🙃

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berniesanders (77) · 5 years ago

Eventually the full story will be told.

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nonameslefttouse (74) · 5 years ago

Did you just announce an announcement?

berniesanders (77) · 5 years ago

🤔

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nonameslefttouse (74) · 5 years ago

Don't worry. I won't tell anyone.

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vegeta (53) · 5 years ago

I didn't see anything here...

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nonameslefttouse (74) · 5 years ago

Just another normal day.

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joeyarnoldvn (61) · 5 years ago

lol

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valued-customer (67) · 5 years ago (edited)

I see the developers that have the most, and most relevant, understanding of Steem code meeting regarding potential improvements to the code - just when Tron is forcing a fork - as extremely important, even existentially for the community.

Clearly, forking is necessarily on the table, and these guys putting their backs into that effort when it becomes necessary is going to be absolutely the best we can hope for in that circumstance.

You seem to disagree. What action would you recommend to enable the community to move forward in the various directions the current situation could go?

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bobinson (63) · 5 years ago (edited)

This seems to be a long term plan. But the challenge that we are facing is an existential crisis of sorts and need a short term action plan and a long term vision. The word existential crisis is subjective and considers centralization of a public ledger as a (sybil) attack. Forking or otherwise (ie voting out the sybil-attackers) is required to re-establish the fact that Steem is a blockchain.

Right now Steem is a database and NOT a blockchain.

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andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago

I agree and support short term efforts to establish a better chain for Steemians. Two groups can work on problems at the same time.

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jondoe (85) · 5 years ago

This doesn't actually seem like it will help steem?

$2.31

8 votes

roundbeargames (70) · 5 years ago

i dunno how many people heard him on palnet but @andrarchy only "talks" about his intentions of not wanting to split the community, but an announcement like this only points in that direction. keep in mind that justin "talks" about his intentions of not being interested in steem governance when his actions are completely the opposite. it seems like they have something in common where they seriously need to work on their "head of communications" skills.

$1.98

littlenewthings (67) · 5 years ago

I personally feel that we should take a breather and see how things could go right if it is possible, and not to jump into conclusion that this will end up a chain split.

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roundbeargames (70) · 5 years ago

yes. lemme just add that 8 people calling "a new blockchain" a benefit to steem is the quickest jump to a conclusion.

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andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago

It is our plan to help Steem. Whatever technologies we develop will be open source and available to the Steem witnesses. The whole purpose of this communication is to inform Steemians of our project so that they can provide their feedback and ensure that our solution does benefit Steem. Thanks for sharing the fact that this was not clear.

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roundbeargames (70) · 5 years ago

could you pls stop saying that it's gonna benefit steemians? you don't own the community, so i dunno why you think you can decide that for every individual on this platform? what are the reasons that makes you 100% sure that it's not gonna harm them?

why not lay out your reasons and let people decide for themselves? you don't have to sugarcoat it with words like "improved decentralization" or "40 years of aggregate blockchain experience". people will do that for you if they believe in you.

you guys could've uploaded a recorded discussion on how this new blockchain is gonna benefit steemians and asked for community feedback, but instead you make an announcement like some politician telling everyone that it's somehow gonna be good for them while giving out no details whatsoever.

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tobetada (70) · 5 years ago

but ultimately it is a step away from Steem, right? Would you support a HF without the ninja mined stake?

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andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago

I would. Yes

tobetada (70) · 5 years ago

happy to hear!

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jondoe (85) · 5 years ago

This is like saying bitcoin developing a social site that everyone in crypto flocks to will benefit steem. They are two competing projects. Sure in a weird round about way, one could always copy the other, but at that point it may be too late to matter as one will win. There will always be winners and losers and you guys building something that gets right what steem got wrong hardly seems like a benefit to steem.

The most likely outcome?

If you are successful, your project does well and steem dies. And the reason you are pushing it here is you are trying to pull the community from here to your project. If not, why even announce it all?

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chesatochi (72) · 5 years ago

Are you going to make the fork of the steem code, and implement SMT, communities, and more features?

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pundito (65) · 5 years ago (edited)

Isn't that we were all waiting for?!?!

Ok, stupid question 🤣
Sure we were!

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epic-fail (59) · 5 years ago

Call it "Phoenix" , the Blockchain that rose from the ashes of STEEM

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trumpman (72) · 5 years ago

*asses

Fixed it for ya

andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago

I like it! Although I hope that Steem continues and leverages whatever technologies we develop to reach new heights.

resiliencia (68) · 5 years ago

Yes it is!

cwow2 (65) · 5 years ago

That is quite a nice name :D

roundbeargames (70) · 5 years ago

why don't you make these "meetings" public? rather than keeping everything a secret thinking the community is just gonna agree with everything you come up with? are your communications gonna be as malicious as justin's?

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andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago

The meetings we have had were mainly focused on agreeing to this announcement and the phrasing of it :) The plan is to do as much in public as possible. My preference would be through a Steem community

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roundbeargames (70) · 5 years ago

thank you. i hope you understand that a general statement like "a new blockchain" is to a lot of people just as ambiguous as justin's "token swap". i also have no idea how the 8 of you came to a conclusion that a new blockchain is gonna benefit steemians, or exactly how you plan on delivering "improved decentralization".

i'm pissed off that dictators like ned/justin are still controlling the blockchain, but i have nothing against you wanting to work on projects that motivate you the most. perhaps instead of a single post, there might be less confusion if you guys record a discussion and let people decide for themselves whether it's gonna be a benefit or not.

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andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago

Great idea, thanks for the feedback

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andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago

Hey @jarvie I understand your issues and I am confident we can alleviate your concerns. We certainly did not intend to encourage people to stop using Steem. OpenSeed will continuing building tools for Steem application developers and plans to support Steem (or another fork of Steem if that’s what the community chooses) indefinitely.

I apologize for the bad timing but we wanted to make as many people aware that we are meeting as soon as we could so that we could have as much of this conversation in public as possible. We want to communicate with amazing Steem app developers like SteemPeak while we’re in the process of developing our technology, instead of making decisions in a dark room and then telling you all “how it’s going to be.” Again I apologize for the bad timing, that being said, in these difficult times it’s hard to know whether there is such a thing as a “good time” for anything. No community in the world is as important to me as the Steem community. I believe I have proven that.

Whatever we do, I am 100% confident that it will benefit Steemians. But in order to make sure it does, we’ll need your valuable feedback.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts and I look forward to continuing the conversation.

$1.22

jarvie (70) · 5 years ago

I can accept that. I appreciate the response. I do believe in the marketplace of ideas and still have confidence everything will work out well. I just want to create a location for content creators to really feel at home and a place where they and their viewers dont feel any strong dependencies on any of us.

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andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago

Could not agree more. I look forward to demonstrating that our goals are aligned :)

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roundbeargames (70) · 5 years ago

A sister chain where justin's and his supporters' stake is forked out? Yes pls!

A brand new chain? Not interested.

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ragnarokdel (58) · 5 years ago

If ninja mined coins are removed from the fork, all ninja-mined coins should be.

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hans001 (57) · 5 years ago

Great..

But what about the euros invested I invested in steem and all the work? And that multiple witness servers I paid for more then a year to witness not one block?

A new chain everybody begins a new chain? Now allready 2 different groups? You know that binance
Unfroze 12million tron right? So that's liquid now.

Why not make steem better? The development fund steemit inc pre mined is 25% of steem. You can do something with that right? Mr. Sun can say and shout what he wants I'm not crazy and not mad at him trying to do business his way. 1 simple question.... where is the development fund created to maintain the steemblockchain? How did the development get paid then and now?

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bobinson (63) · 5 years ago

Is this project planning to contribute to the Steem DPoS challenges in the short term (ie in less than 7 day time period) or is this an entirely new initiative not related Steem Blockchain ?

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hans001 (57) · 5 years ago

It's a new blockchain. They got your cashpiggy broken because of the keep the top 20 in the top 20 votesystem now it's time for a new cashpiggy on your sidetable.

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bobinson (63) · 5 years ago

Its a new project unrelated to the current incidents of Steem ~~blockchain~~ database

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andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago

I wouldn’t say this is unrelated to the Steem blockchain, we just don’t know enough yet, but we are not developing anything with such a short time horizon. This is a longer term initiative to re-evaluate all previous design decisions. I support other short term initiatives and believe they have the talent necessary to accomplish their goals.

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twinner (68) · 5 years ago (edited)

Sad and dissapointing to read that their is no Intention via SPS to bring SMT‘s into Production. But maybe I‘m missing a Part ...

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6 votes

andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago

That’s not off the table! This is meant to be the beginning of the conversation. Ideas like this are more than welcome and I’d be happy to discuss it with the team.

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twinner (68) · 5 years ago

I think that it is very important for STEEM that this last feature is still activated. And I also think that this would enhance the reputation of ex-Steemit Devs in the industry. That they delivered the product that many doubted...

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theoretical (65) · 5 years ago

I've recently written about my plans to build a new and better blockchain. It's quite a monumental endeavor for a single person. I'm happy that everyone in this post feels the same way, wants to form a Working Group, and I won't have to go it alone!

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anthonyadavisii (70) · 5 years ago

Are you planning on sticking w DPoS? I'm working on the concept for another algorithm but it's real high level / disjointed at the moment. Will take some time to bring it all together.

Once I figure out how our group can secure the trademark, would be glad to collaborate. I'm more of a general purpose system engineer so would really benefit from one that specializes in software.

Feel free to stop by the @steemflagrewards discord if you would like to get a better feel for where I am coming from not merely technically but also the ethos surrounded the vision.

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hans001 (57) · 5 years ago

Well I don't think they thought of you. 🙈 your post was everywhere even I read it. Why didn't they contact you?

Also a question for you... what... about... my steem investment. In time euro's witness servercosts without witnessing 1 block?

Why not solve this one and do with the 25% steem what it was intended? Develop the chain.

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andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago

... he is part of the working group.

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ilovedonpaul (38) · 5 years ago

.........This group, with over 40 years of aggregate blockchain experience........., this is ridiculously falsified and you want me to believe that, how could you say a thing like that "over 40 years of blockchain experience"?, then, how old is blockchain industry?. Please convince me with better theories.

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eturnerx (64) · 5 years ago

It's one of those marketing things. There's 8 people so they'll need an avg of 5 years each to make the 40 years.

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fredrikaa (70) · 5 years ago

Kick-Ass! Can't wait to see what you guys have in mind! Would love to see where there are opportunities to do something together👊

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masterthematrix (60) · 5 years ago

Yeah,the old Steem Dev Team back again and now free of incompetent leadership!
Congrats to that move! The Steem Community is very happy to see, that you guys are keep on working to improve the Steem Blockchain, and hopefully also to finish up the SMT project :-)

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netuoso (70) · 5 years ago

They have zero plans on "improving the Steem Blockchain" and much less so about "finishing SMT".

They think the Steem blockchain, as is, is a failure of design and they are going to create a new blockchain from scratch. I wish they would have shared more information about their plans so the other community members don't have to come pick up their slack.

To reiterate, they are NOT saving the Steem blockchain or planning to continue the Steem community with the existing Steemd code. They are likely not even going to base their code off Steem but thats just my assumption and has no evidence backing it.

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valued-customer (67) · 5 years ago

"...thats just my assumption and has no evidence backing it."

These are very specific statements that must have some reason behind it. There seems to be a substantial body of knowledge regarding this team both you and Bernie seem privy to, presumably due to your being witnesses.

It is difficult to make good decisions regarding complex evolutions absent relevant information, and your position on this event indicates that information I am unaware of dramatically affects how it is understood.

What informs your very specific expectations for the direction you expect this team to go?

Thanks!

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netuoso (70) · 5 years ago

A source I trust very much

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valued-customer (67) · 5 years ago

Understood

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hans001 (57) · 5 years ago

My kind of thought also..

The thing also is This... The keep the top 20 in the top 20 kind of voting is not that kind of thing buttt I follow the you must have knowledge into the top 20 because their work on the blockchain.

Why even the top 20 why not the top 100 and just steempower based voting instead of 30 votes. That is the real issue... Why smt? We have all ready altcoins?

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pangoli (69) · 5 years ago

Steem is broken. The only option is to fork and move on if we don't agree with the way Justin plays the game. The rules are pretty much the same way it used to be when the top 20 witnesses ignored it because they didn't think it would hurt them this much.

But, of course they wouldn't want a fork either (which is clearly the best thing to do now). It would reduce their coin value to almost zero.

If someone is going to develop a new chain, regardless of whether it helps steem or not, I think I'm all in for that. They're not obligated to save us when the solution is obviously in front of us.

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netuoso (70) · 5 years ago

But, of course they wouldn't want a fork either (which is clearly the best thing to do now). It would reduce their coin value to almost zero.

Are you speaking for them? I know quite a few of them and they would say that's full of shit.

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pangoli (69) · 5 years ago

Just read @blocktrades ' recent post and i am definitely glad to hear that we're moving to a new chain.
Finally, someone is working on a solution rather than bitching about the problem all week on Twitter.

Hopefully, we fix the long-standing broken witness voting system pretty soon. Would want to see new faces who are actually pulling in value.

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phusionphil (66) · 5 years ago

Is this "original" team from august 2016?

I am curious because I joined in august 2016 and had zero issues aside from stuff @nedtheshithead did or a few downvote tempertanrums that occurred.

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andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago

Yes I believe this is the original team aside from Dan Larimer. Nathan Caldwell is a blockchain developer that @theoretical has worked with for a long time and who worked at Steemit later on. @gerbino also began working at Steemit about 1.5 years ago and did much of the work on SMTs.

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phusionphil (66) · 5 years ago

awesome, I will give you guys a chance with my witnesses votes and check your service out, I respect that you quit Steemit to start a fresh chapter instead of carry the dead weight.

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andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago

Thanks! We have no intention of running a witness, so please keep on supporting whatever real witnesses you can!

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testarasta (58) · 5 years ago

For the new ones, who have fallen in the middle of the storm unleashed by the purchase of Justin Sun, I think it is good news. Hopefully it will prosper.

Regards.

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thecryptodrive (70) · 5 years ago

You guys were the heart of Steem development, keep me in the loop on your progress. Link me you chat server if you have one.

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berniesanders (77) · 5 years ago (edited)

Nothing like adding some sleaze into the mix of people who are somewhat competent (that excludes @ned's mouthpiece @andrarchy - complete moron!!!

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7 votes

steevc (73) · 5 years ago

That's a great team who could achieve a lot. I'm sure you have learnt a lot from the last few years.

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ammonite (67) · 5 years ago

The more experiments the better.

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andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago

Agreed!

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meesterboom (78) · 5 years ago

This is more like the kind of stuff I want to see!

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andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago

Perfect then!

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detlev (73) · 5 years ago

Good to know that all this knowledge stay with the community.

Let’s see what comes out of it and let’s join force against the bad ones.

This move deserve a !BEER and we hopefully get soon some facts.

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argsolver (52) · 5 years ago

Great initiative @andrarchy ! Perhaps you could take a look at the Reputational Enhanced Delegated Proof-of-Stake (REDPOS) protocol concept for a #socialblockchain and share your thoughts?

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andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago (edited)

Absolutely! Reputation is my personal pet project! Thanks for sharing the info! Feel free to join the OpenSeed discord until we find a better place for group discussions: https://discord.gg/kqnpRH

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argsolver (52) · 5 years ago

Great, thanks! The concept behind what would constitute a REDPOS type of protocol is explained here. Feel free to post that link on the #ideas section of the discord channel for future reference if you find it may be of any help.

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bashadow (65) · 5 years ago

I can only hope that the lines of communication will open and remain open for updates. I will be trying to follow the developments as close as I can, and hope that we see an end product regardless of what happens to Steem Block Chain. I would like to see SBC continue but I do fear that with the complications that any fork Tron tries to do will end in disaster. Do you have a temporary centralized site, Non - Facebook / Twitter that I can bookmark just in case the SBC gets broke and torn asunder? I just do not have the Faith that some do when it comes to Tron doing Hard Forks and updates on the Steem Block Chain.

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netuoso (70) · 5 years ago

Well let's see .. they made an announcement of an announcement as @berniesanders put it. They have quite a few replies now on this post, yet they haven't replied to a single person here.

A couple of them have made a top-level comment with some useless remark, but I would say their current "communication" is pretty lacking.

Let's hope the communication improves. (I won't hold my breath, this seems to be very hard for projects in this space)

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bashadow (65) · 5 years ago

That was one of the reasons I had to ask, people talk a lot about this project and that project and when questions are asked, we get nothing but blank stares back, like deer caught in the headlights. I really was not expecting much from the former communications director of steemit, after all most of the communications from him were about his own projects, and very little about steemit.

Let's hope the communication improves. (I won't hold my breath, this seems to be very hard for projects in this space)

A good plan not to hold our breaths I guess.
Thank you for taking the time to respond.
!ENGAGE 25

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andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago (edited)

Sorry about that, getting around to answering all the questions now. One of my ambitions is to deliver a degree of transparency and communication that is an order of magnitude improvement over common practices. That’s precisely why I wanted to disclose that this group is meeting as soon as possible. First, so that we can begin getting and responding to feedback before any important product decisions have been made, and second so that we can continue to give a stream of updates as we make progress. But what we didn’t want to do was share our individual thoughts on how improvements can be made without disclosing that we are collaborating with the goal of releasing a new product over the long term. Mind you, one of our goals with this product is to benefit the Steem users. I support whatever short term solutions the Steem community embraces and OpenSeed will continue to build tools for Steem app developers as well as continue to support the Steem blockchain indefinitely. Whatever technology we develop will be MIT open source and available to the Steem witnesses to incorporate into the main chain

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misterengagement (55) · 5 years ago

@netuoso you have received 25 ENGAGE from @bashadow!
View and trade the tokens on Steem Engine.

^{This tip bot is powered by witness untersatz!}

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miti (75) · 5 years ago

If you'd like this product is to benefit the Steem users, then fork Steem Blockchain and let's get rid of Steemit Stake and Justin Sun.
I just can't say it any plainer than that.

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inertia (73) · 5 years ago

Nice.

raycoms (70) · 5 years ago

Are there ways to join in on the fun when things are kicking off?

raycoms (70) · 5 years ago

(Talking about designing consensus, governance, etc)

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andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago (edited)

For now I would say join the OpenSeed discord server, and once we set up a space specifically for this new project I’ll be sure and update everyone there. But I suspect OpenSeed will play a big part in our project as it can integrate with multiple chains at the same time. For example, in OpenSeed applications users will be able to choose what blockchain they want to use, and we plan to continue support for Steem (or whatever blockchain the Steem community adopts) indefinitely.

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raycoms (70) · 5 years ago

I'm there already, sounds good then

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mytechtrail (59) · 5 years ago

Thanks for the heads up, would your group be willing to take on maintenance of STEEM as part of @enginewitty's Proposal # 77.

enginewitty (72) · 5 years ago

people intent on leveraging their knowledge gained working with Steem to design and develop a new blockchain

Doesn't sound like they're sticking around.

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mytechtrail (59) · 5 years ago

That is why I posed the question, as to whether they would help out or as you say are they abandoning us.

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enginewitty (72) · 5 years ago

Abandon is such an ugly word 😔

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valued-customer (67) · 5 years ago (edited)

Tron is forking Steem. I don't see us holding off his constant purchase of more Steem until he has the requisite stake to govern Steem at his sole option, and then he'll fork.

Steem isn't sticking around.

When that fork comes, what should the fork we go to look like? Should we go with Tron? I probably won't, because I don't expect Steem to enable it's community to remain viable after Tron seizes it.

What do you think the fork we land on should look like? Isn't that what the Steem Team should be discussing?

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enginewitty (72) · 5 years ago

These guys aren't Tron. All I see is current and former Steempeeps working on chains which will not be Steem but something else entirely based on Steem. I can't think of any fork or split of a coin that was better off than the original. All the BTC forks have failed in comparison to Bitcoin. Ethereum classic was a flop. Tron hasn't said anything about forking Steem. Will be interesting to see how it plays out.

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tuck-fheman (74) · 5 years ago

Blockchain History ...

Ethereum Classic is actually the original ETH chain, so technically speaking ... Ethereum (the fork of ETH Classic) is better than ETC.
Litecoin (a fork of Tenebrix) is better than Tenebrix (which is ded).
NEM (a fork of NXT) is better than NXT (even prior to the new codebase).
Monero (a fork of Bytecoin) is better than Bytecoin (even prior to the new codebase).

I'm sure there are plenty of other lesser examples, but these are the most glaring and popular.

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andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago

Many of the people who worked on BTC worked on Ethereum. Many of the people who worked on Steem worked on EOS.

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valued-customer (67) · 5 years ago

I think Tron has shown it certainly intends to fork asap, as Roy Liu has repeatedly indicated they reckon reducing powerdown time dramatically necessary, and from various statements regarding their plans for Steemit, Inc., and Steem. It's also been reported to me that Sun has offered proxy.token voters things that could only be provided by a fork.

There's little doubt in my mind that Tron will undertake a fork asap.

I appreciate your courteous reply. Thanks!

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andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago

Correct

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andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago

How so? We’re still here. And if your proposal got funding I’m sure we’d be happy to contribute to the Steem code base. This is still a very new effort. Part of the reason we wanted to make this announcement is so that we could begin getting suggestions from Steemians and explore different opportunities like your proposal, which seems like a great idea btw!

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andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago

Yes I think we would consider it.

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nancybriti (70) · 5 years ago

Excellent team. Initiatives like this one are the ones that corroborate the solidity and the capacity of opportunities that STEEM has. Successes in this new project, friends!

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andrewmarkmusic (67) · 5 years ago

My only input would be to suggest that those involved at the highest levels of this new chain from the devs to the witnesses should not be anonymous. That is to say, they can have any handle they like but their real names should be attached to it and they should not be allowed to have more than one profile. So no one involved at the top of this gets hundreds and thousands of sock-puppet accounts to spew toxicity and propaganda.

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valued-customer (67) · 5 years ago (edited)

I can see why you desire that, but how do you think that could actually be done? The technology doesn't allow those restrictions on users on Steem atm. Do you suggest we install keyloggers on these guys' computers and stream them to Dtube?

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andrewmarkmusic (67) · 5 years ago

Whether it can be done or not doesn't interest me as much as those that do such things come to a clear understanding that it's unethical. And if they can't see that they are mired in delusion which isn't my problem...I get that this type of thing happens in the real world, too, by shell companies and proxies but it's not ethical there either. In the end, do what you want but please don't turn around and talk ethics--attacking Mr.Sun for his self-serving ethics. Again I was only talking about the hierarchical elite who are in positions of authority and never said they shouldn't have handles...
In the end, I've made a decision not to have prolonged dialogue on SM unless there is clear and substantial video evidence that people are somewhat close to what they represent themselves to be.

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valued-customer (67) · 5 years ago (edited)

Well, I have lately come to a somewhat startling conclusion to me that the legacy witnesses and most substantial stakeholders on Steem have long strongly centralized governance, although I still reckon that preferable to the unitary centralization sought by Sun.

I do not recommend unethical behaviour, and I'll leave my record on Steem to stand evidence of my own behaviour. I don't disagree with wanting folks to behave ethically, but my point was more that such is unenforceable here, as IRL. The whole point of DLTs to my understanding is to eliminate the need for policing, to make it impossible to lie, cheat, and steal due to the parameters of the code limiting such behaviour.

Insofar as Steem hasn't, Steem has failed. We can't expect only honest folks to be on Steem, and I haven't noted that happening either. So, the point is to not demand behaviour that can only be enforced with legacy political mechanisms, such as police, and insofar as such behaviour isn't necessitated by the DLT the blockchain has failed to enable society to be ethical by allowing unethical behaviour then to fix the DLT.

I don't think the solution is pledges of chastity. I think it's belts. If Steem doesn't have belts well designed enough, we should tend to that, not demand purity vows and rings. IMHO, of course. Some folks prefer unethical behaviour, but I don't reckon I'm talking to one of them.

Edit: I seem to be a noob, but dunno what you mean by 'SM' at the end of your comment.

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hone.heke (51) · 5 years ago

Are you aware of any proposals which address the problem of centralization caused by our system of Stake Based Voting for Witnesses?
Why can we not have registered voters with their real identities and not have the vote register attached to the Steemit accounts at all?

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andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago

We plan to resolve the issues of centralization and voting without the need for KYC

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hone.heke (51) · 5 years ago (edited)

How?
You were like a breath of fresh air at the town hall thing

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valued-customer (67) · 5 years ago

I shall await further announcements with bated breath. Thanks for making this happen.

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netuoso (70) · 5 years ago

I don't suggest you hold your breath while you wait. Could be holding it for some time.

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valued-customer (67) · 5 years ago (edited)

While we need a basic MVP to prepare for unpredictable events, I reckon a fork that prevents this existential threat to Steem will require careful consideration, meticulous work, and careful testing, and that all takes time.

That's what we need too.

I expect Tron to keep acquiring Steem until it has enough to force consensus, and then fork immediately to commit the NCP and proxy.token. If we want to end up on whatever fork of Steem Tron bungles up, then we don't need these guys discussing what to do.

I don't. I want these guys taking action as needed to make a fork we can be proud of landing on when the SHTF, because it probably is going to, and sooner than later.

You might pick a different team for this task. Have you thought about doing that? I know you're technically competent, far beyond my ability to judge. What do you think can be done to prepare for Tron forking Steem all up?

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netuoso (70) · 5 years ago

Tron doesn't need any SP to execute a hard fork since they have the main RPC nodes and pretty clear support from exchanges.

Having SP helps them do it the "normal" way. And frankly idk if anyone told Sun there are more options.

This team isn't a bad team. I just have it on high authority they are not going to make a short term fork of Steem for the community.

They may or may not even ever make a chain. As it stands they just want to rethink the protocol. I think a lot of us want that.

But nothing actionable will come from this team in the short term.

valued-customer (67) · 5 years ago

Thank you for sharing your informed understanding.

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mrprofessor (68) · 5 years ago

Just don't go with an inflationary based coin, this never worked in our history and will never work in digital history, for many many reasons...

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ragnarokdel (58) · 5 years ago

In the real world, there are tools to recover the money of diseased people. with crypto, if you cant find the password, it might as well be lost forever so we do need an inflationary currency, it just doesnt have to be a big one and it should be given through "rewards" rather than be added to the existing balances like it does on steem.

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valued-customer (67) · 5 years ago

"...t should be given through "rewards" rather than be added to the existing balances like it does on steem."

Could you better explain what you mean by this please?

Thanks!

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ragnarokdel (58) · 5 years ago

SP increases over time. just for having it.

Bitcoin doesnt have inflation, once all coins are going to be minted, all the miners will only share the dust from transactions which is barely anything. A lot of bitcoin are already gone forever from people losing their wallet and dying. The stupid solution to that is the argument you can go 10 digits behind the comma but at that point, what's the real currency? Bitcoin or satoshis?

I would rather see a permanent 0.95% inflation rate through rewards but without the SP inflation

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mrprofessor (68) · 5 years ago

It would be impractical to stablish an inflation rate based on an unknown number of inaccessible wallets; one solution would be for users to set a trusted recover account, to where the funds will be sent after 'x' time of it being inactive.

The stupid solution to that is the argument you can go 10 digits behind the comma but at that point, what's the real currency? Bitcoin or satoshis?

It's all Bitcoin, divisibility is one of the requirements for good money. The thing is that it doesn't need to be the currency, but the monetary base in which the whole ecosystem is baked to.

The thing that seems to be broken is the way Steem is created/distributed, we can't expect growth from inflation/printing, it's never worked in our history since ancient empires.

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ragnarokdel (58) · 5 years ago

there's no difference between 21 million bitcoin divisible by 0.00000001s and 21 000 000 000 000 bitcoin divisible by 0.01 but it sure as shit would be easier to use since it would be more similar to what everyday people use.

Bitcoin could keep a 2.5 btc reward per block forever after it reaches 21 million and it wouldn't have a dramatic decrease in value. Inflation isnt the issue, it's unpredictable inflation that is.

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valued-customer (67) · 5 years ago (edited)

Ok, I thought you meant Steem didn't have rewards =p. Thanks for setting me straight.

"... the dust from transactions which is barely anything..."

I recall transaction fees going to 25% at BTC's peak. That's not dust. That's boulders. For all practical purposes it's the same thing as inflation, meaning BTC isn't inflation proof at all, but subject exactly to unpredictable inflation in the worst way.

As we approach the halving, I expect mining to continue to consolidate further, and centralize the power of miners over BTC. AXA may already have optimally have done so, and if that's the case, further consolidation isn't necessary.

Either way, I reckon BTC has failed to resist inflation, and failed to prevent centralization OR it's subjection to legacy financial mechanisms. I note the day BTC crashed from it's peak was the day it's futures market was instituted. I am grateful for the example of how legacy banksters control assets that event provided, if not for the control is reveals.

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anthonyadavisii (70) · 5 years ago

Good luck. May the best #NewNewSteem win!

Or alternatively we all find out respective niche and all win.

_{Don't really feel a necessity to be an either or guy.}

In any case, I have been deeply thinking of alternative designs to Steem and entertaining the prospect of recreating the same experience (or more robust perhaps) but developing a different mechanism for consensus.

Currently, think we have all become well appraised of the shortfalls of purely stake based DPoS.

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andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago

Totally agree. Feel free to join the OpenSeed discord until we find a better place for group discussions: https://discord.gg/kqnpRH

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resiliencia (68) · 5 years ago (edited)

I am in!

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phgnomo (64) · 5 years ago

Good Job folks. I hope you guys come up with a better project than the Shitshow Steem have become.

I will be following your progress.

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eirik (69) · 5 years ago

Hell yeah!

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dalz (68) · 5 years ago

Haleluya :)

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cardboard (61) · 5 years ago

So the Plan B is in motion :)

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cloudspyder (59) · 5 years ago

I know you will not fail even Bernie told you today, you've fail in day one. Failure doesn't mean defeat it's a good teacher you know.

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ankarlie (64) · 5 years ago

Sounds interesting good luck in your new endeavor.

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darrenfj (59) · 5 years ago

as one of my old bosses used to say:

onward thorough the fog!

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isabelpena (69) · 5 years ago

Good news @andrarchy I hope to see your informers about your progress and be part of them. Count on it.

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phusionphil (66) · 5 years ago

Can I vote you guys for witness so I dont have to register for another social media site?

I love the inspiration you all have, I just personally have so much spam from blockchain projects, and I am very OCD about which blockchains I accept in my life, yet even being picky I cant keep up with all these distributed ledgers.

Thank you for Caring, I will sign up if I have too, but if you could just make a side chain on steem that would be great.

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themanualbot (70) · 5 years ago

Is this somehow better than forking out a new "social network" from the original but now corrupted steem?🤔

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abitcoinskeptic (73) · 5 years ago

I am excited

ME too!

I can't wait to see what you clever people come up with. I have no doubt it will be better than what we got right now. In the meantime let's choose a pseudonym for @theoretical, I suggest Theo Retical :)

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melinda010100 (73) · 5 years ago

Thanks @andrarchy for coming on the town hall today and making this project transparent right from the start. What an incredible list of people! It gives me hope for the future! ❤️

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hans001 (57) · 5 years ago

Yeah but what about the steem invested?

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jga (65) · 5 years ago

Wonderful! I would be happy to contribute if necessary.
Looking forward for the updates :)

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cryptanjoman (40) · 5 years ago

Awesome. Scrap this bogus 'witness' system and you will be off to a great start!

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itstime (60) · 5 years ago

only interested if there is going to be an airdrop to existing steemians...

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hans001 (57) · 5 years ago

Yeah! Airdrop on time invested servers rented euros the original euros invested. This all locked up for 5 years and released in time based spent on steem.

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itstime (60) · 5 years ago

sure why not...

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andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago

I’m certainly in favor of that idea!

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manniman (63) · 5 years ago

Very nice, just followed all of you.

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joeyarnoldvn (61) · 5 years ago

Awesome

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kirpy0x (33) · 5 years ago

Wow... :( At this point I'd really just like to see some good witnesses come in and take a pledge to not freeze users funds... Few people will trust the new blockchain after what happened.

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andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago

One of our goals as a group is to ensure that these current events can never be repeated. One large stakeholder should never have been able to take control of the chain and the witnesses should not have been able to freeze funds. Now I support the witnesses because they were effectively responding to a Sybil attack, but the point is that they never should have HAD to respond to such an attack.

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jondoe (85) · 5 years ago

Wouldn't just adjusting the witness voting parameters on steem be more sensible than redesigning and creating an entirely new blockchain? Not to mention that if you do this successfully it likely kills the steem blockchain and any value associated with it (regardless of what you say about steem theoretically being able to adopt the changes).

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geekgirl (72) · 5 years ago

When are the airdrops happening?

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ats-david (74) · 5 years ago (edited)

I don’t believe this group is working on a hard fork of Steem. Seems they will be designing an entirely new blockchain at some point in the future.

geekgirl (72) · 5 years ago

I suspected that but wasn’t 100% sure. Sounds interesting. Hopefully it won’t take them years.

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https://steemit.com/blockchain/@theoretical/in-the-beginning-there-was-dpos

tuck-fheman (74) · 5 years ago

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andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago

That is certainly not the plan. 6 months to a year is probably more what we’re shooting for. Of course the sooner the better, but don’t want to set unrealistic expectations.

valued-customer (67) · 5 years ago

I think they'd be fools not to prepare a MVP HF for instant deployment in the event Tron succeeds to consensus and forks Steem all up.

But you may be right. There's various components of Steem that aren't just code, like infrastructure, coordination with front ends, and etc. From @jarvie's response above, I don't think they've coordinated with Steempeak nominally. Anyx runs the node I am using right now, though, so this team has more wherewithal to successfully fork Steem than any other option I've seen.

Which is none. Dunno if these guys are preparing for an emergency fork, even.

Tron is though.

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ats-david (74) · 5 years ago

You should learn more about future forks soon enough, based on my educated guess. ;)

This team is not planning on a hard fork at all, as far as I know. Their objective is different and more long-term. It will definitely take more time to develop.

Keep an eye out for any new news in the coming week. You’ll know when you see it.

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andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago

This is correct.

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valued-customer (67) · 5 years ago (edited)

Well, I hope this team does involve itself in upcoming HF's because it's them I reckon have the greatest experience and highest standards of ethics regarding Steem. I submit that their recent resignations are pretty good evidence of this.

If you have the benevolent consideration and ability, in the event I seem to be missing substantial events, I'd greatly appreciate a ping regarding those events.

Thank you.

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andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago

We are not working on a hard form at the moment, and current thinking is that it will be a new blockchain farther in the future. Thanks @ats-david for replying.

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rehan12 (73) · 5 years ago

Exciting times indeed. We will be waiting for the updates and really looking forward to it.

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lordbutterfly (70) · 5 years ago

If youre going to do this... Please consider melding this with the idea of a hardfork thats floating around.

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successforall (58) · 5 years ago

I agree. There should be a hardfork so the community can work, post and stay together. This will give the community a sense of continuity otherwise we risk the danger of community falling apart and fading away, especially if the new chain launch is going take a while.

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andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago

Our project is longer term and is not intended to compete with that effort. I wish them luck and because all of our technology with be open source they will be able to take advantage of anything good we release.

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lordbutterfly (70) · 5 years ago

I think thats fair. Seeing where the Steem ship is heading i think ill be paying attention to your guys project.

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andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago

Glad you feel that way, thanks for the feedback

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borislavzlatanov (54) · 5 years ago

Please check this recent discussion with @blocktrades on evolution of software design: https://steempeak.com/cryptocurrency/@borislavzlatanov/re-blocktrades-q6ffot

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toofasteddie (70) · 5 years ago

That's a great new indeed.

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simplifylife (63) · 5 years ago

Exciting! Will be looking forward to the updates!

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marki99 (54) · 5 years ago

Best news we've had since the Tron acquisition. What about @roadscape?

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littlenewthings (67) · 5 years ago

Really looking forward to see how it will work much better decentralised!

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ragnarokdel (58) · 5 years ago

I have every confidence in your ability to deliver in terms of coding, I sincerely hope you have a good brand name. You will need it to succeed.

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spellmaker (62) · 5 years ago

Lovely to hear you're back on the blockchain!

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steemitcuration (67) · 5 years ago

So do you want us to dump steem now or let you cash out and we pick up the crumbs or better still you sell we will hold then buy into some shit token you come up with coz you did a great job with steem 👍

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birdinc (62) · 5 years ago

That's a pretty solid team. I'm happy to contribute.

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birdinc (62) · 5 years ago

The goal of this group should be no less than to figure out how to get private keys in the hands of over 100 million people with social blockchain leveraging important lessons learned at Steemit.

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steemitboard (66) · 5 years ago

Congratulations @andrarchy! You have completed the following achievement on the Steem blockchain and have been rewarded with new badge(s) :

Your post was the most commented of the day

_{You can view your badges on your Steem Board and compare to others on the Steem Ranking}
_{If you no longer want to receive notifications, reply to this comment with the word STOP}

Vote for @Steemitboard as a witness to get one more award and increased upvotes!

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freddio (61) · 5 years ago

that is really cool.

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