Moving to hive

mobbs (69) · 7 years ago

We implemented this out of common sense at steemstem, with no single individual (including curators, managers, founders, but not including the community account which adds funds to VP etc) able to pass 2.75% of out total curation weight. If one reaches that, we either give minimal upvotes or none until they fall back down based on the steemreports 14 day average.

It ain't that hard

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bluehorseshoe (61) · 7 years ago

Makes good sense unless someone is a big fat bloated greedy whale.

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kryzsec (59) · 7 years ago

Then we work together as a group and flag the greedy whale, just as stated in the white paper.

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missioncontrol (44) · 7 years ago

Except if the whale has more steem power than you.

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kryzsec (59) · 7 years ago

I am going to assume you have not read the whitepaper, otherwise you wouldn't have made that statement.

In the white paper in the subsection named voter abuse under the section voting to distribute the currency (I believe thats what its called, could be wrong but I am going off of memory) it states something along the following:

If a large stakeholder is abusing their voting share than many smaller shareholders can work together to nullify the rewards.

It also says in that section (above this) that negative-voting (downvote/flag) is there to stop such abuse such as: collusive voting, self-voting, etc.

It is really a good read for the hypothetical situation at what steem was intended to be and you should probably read it. I mean, steem is a lot different than what was initially planned but still. Even still it is a good read!

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5 votes

charitybot (63) · 7 years ago

No, they can't, a 50.01% share of the stake would be invincible. Nothing you said negates his point.

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kryzsec (59) · 7 years ago

No whale has 125 million SP, many would fight to prevent a whale from getting 125 million SP.... As well, due to how rewards are given, if a whale had 125 million SP... His vote would be worth around $1, why? Because the reward pool would be gone.

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charitybot (63) · 7 years ago

You have some errors in your basic assumptions of how the reward pool works.

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Show 6 more replies

valued-customer (67) · 7 years ago

More than all the minnows put together.

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bluefoxy (45) · 7 years ago

I was looking for this information. Thanks for the scale!

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dolphinschool (42) · 7 years ago

Right, when you can't get 100 people to upvote a post encouraging people to manage their own votes, you're going to get enough votes to correct a bernie, or a grumpycat? Good luck with that. If you figure out how, please share.

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kryzsec (59) · 7 years ago

There are whales out there upvoting themselves to $300+ and you are concerned with someone that voted themselves to around $30 and got another $14 from their followers...

Anyways large pools of voters do go after and attempt to counter whale votes, some go after grumpycat, some go after bernie, and some go after others. The problem in most cases isn't that people don't want to vote, its that some groups of people are dumb enough to say "Flagging is violent and stealing" which convinces many that it is evil when it isn't. Maybe if people were educated, from day 1, that voting on something, up or down, is something they choose to do. If they think that a post is overvalued to negatively vote it and if its undervalued to positively vote it, as well to accurately teach them about curation (a lot of things I see still tell people to vote on posts that are valued high because they are more likely to gain curation rewards) and so much more... then when they do learn the truth about these things they feel cheated.

Ever thought that those posts encouraging people to manage their votes just weren't that good and didn't deserve that much for rewards, in other peoples eyes? Like there are so many reasons why people do and don't vote stuff, and quite often they are more likely to vote on controversial issues where you can get their heart into it, like say some user is raping the reward pool (gets a lot of people triggered enough to go vote)

Play your articles to the crowd.

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markrmorrisjr (70) · 7 years ago

Maybe this argument will make more sense if I use my main account. I'm not a beginner here. I've been around a while. And yeah, I'm concerned about vote buying.
The top trending articles in nearly every category are further enriching those same whales, there are two up there today, at least, that have over $300 in votes purchased, and it's 17% of the total prize pool being awarded to purchased votes, so, yes, And that whale profit can't be downvoted.

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kryzsec (59) · 7 years ago

Well Grumpycat has gotten many of the major bidbots to change to the 3 day thing, which while doesn't solve the problem does give us a lot more freedom in flagging trash posts that don't deserve rewards. So while I may not be able to convince a bidbot to change on my own, some people (and groups) can bring about change.

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markrmorrisjr (70) · 7 years ago

I agree with that, but without reigning in the "reward laundering" where the whales do not subject themselves to scrutiny through self-voting, the bottom of the platform and the top of the platform will continue to grow further apart as users see buying votes the only way to succeed.

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Show 5 more replies

ttanarcy (46) · 7 years ago

you should make this comment into a "how to be successful in steemit" article 5 stars

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doomsdaychassis (63) · 7 years ago

which bot is this? i may actually use the bot if it is set up like you say. i did not see @steemstem on steembottracker.

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mobbs (69) · 7 years ago

No, we manually create, and keep an eye on it. It wouldnt be hard if we wanted to simply stop votes after a certain % has been passed, such as a discord bot (which we do use to for more convenient curating methods)

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jannatehimachal (43) · 7 years ago

@mobbs yes but due to low ROI some time bots are not so profitable :(

Posted using Partiko Android

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josediccus (75) · 7 years ago

Well exactly my thought, would make sense If some interesting new faces with good content can trend so that people can at least consume quality content and get to know people who are really putting out their bests,
It's such fantastic idea and well apart from flagging, maybe there can also be a way it could happen as well.

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12 votes

brettcalloway (57) · 7 years ago

I agree that the trending tab is pure crap for the most part. I did a post about this maybe a month ago. My suggestion is to make a truly organic trending tab the disqualifies anyone from showing up who uses voting bots. If you use voting bots you should show up under promoted. Also, I’d like to see a notification such as “sponsored” to be easily visible to let everyone know votes have been purchased to promote the post. I’m not against vote buying, we just need more transparent disclosure and sorting. Thanks for the post!

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valued-customer (67) · 7 years ago

All of your ideas you present here are good ones, and old ones. In conversations with top witnesses, and Stinc, I have seen them handwaved away and brushed off. There's a reason for this, and it isn't given, so we have to make our best guess.

Here's some information which can inform your best guess as to why the system is the way it is today. Almost all the stake in Steem that exists was mined before Steemit, or any other front ends, were public. Almost all upvote bots buy delegations from those mined stakes, or are run by those accounts directly, which makes upvote bots and delegations the primary mechanism that produces ROI for whales. 35 of them control the vast majority of Steem extant.

Stinc and the top witnesses are dependent on that stake. Witness votes are stake-weighted, so the whales control the witnesses, and Stinc's market is those whales, who have all the Steem.

Transparent disclosure and sorting is a threat to whales profits, so how likely is it for Stinc and the top witnesses to make that happen?

It's not by mistake that the system is the way it is now.

Thanks!

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ahmadmanga (65) · 7 years ago

Maybe someone can make a Front End steemit website implementing this suggestion (like mspsteem or busy.org), I don't think it's that hard for a professional.

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brettcalloway (57) · 7 years ago

The only problem is technically no one gets paid to do that type of stuff directly.The may get votes and in turn make more money, but not directly. To have a dedicated team, in my opinion someone has to be taking a cut of the payouts like DTube at 25%. This way incentives are directly aligned across the board. Steemit was and is a proof of concept. What I’m concerned with is what happens to Steem Power when other platforms using SMTs take off and Steemit.com may not? Steem Power is a direct investment into STEEM. If SMTs do well then I would assume STEEM is doing well...which means my Steem Power is doing well. But, where do I access my Steem Power, STEEM and SBD outside of Steemit.com? Any thoughts?

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ahmadmanga (65) · 7 years ago

I didn't think that far... I never thought of this problem SMT can make, though only if Steemit was the in the lower end of popularity between the STEEM sites right?

If that happened, wouldn't STEEM be like the Bitcoin to Altcoins now? Used more than store value and "a price base" than it's initial use as currency.

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brettcalloway (57) · 7 years ago

I don’t think it takes away the allure to tap into STEEMs daily inflation payouts. Steemit might be an easy way for a community to tap into to the cash flow without having to do much. Why mess with that? I’m not sure if all STEEM based apps would go away to start their own SMT. But, I almost have to believe the way it works would be that your Steem Power is accepted across the board. So any app that doesn’t do a SMT will use your current stake of Steem Power to determin your influence on the site. The only way to avoid the current entrenched whale voting groups from influencing your audience and content, you have to create a SMT. Still a lot of confusion there for me, but I’m trying to get a better grasp in it over the coming months. Thanks for the comment!

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markrmorrisjr (70) · 7 years ago

Which is what happened over a year ago when they introduced promoted posts. People got pissed, and didn't want them in their feed competing. But, somehow, there hasn't been as much of an outcry over this.

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fitzgibbon (61) · 7 years ago

Has the trending page even been about quality content in the history of Steem?

Or are we longing back to days that never even existed?

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ahmadmanga (65) · 7 years ago

As far as I know... Never. It's one of the necessary flaws of the system... But we can still dream, right? It's not totally impossible but almost hard to make it happen if we have a plan. We didn't find one yet.

Has the trending page even been about quality content in the history of Steem?

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fitzgibbon (61) · 7 years ago

Necessary flaws?

I could think of at least 3 different effective ways to get the focus on quality content within the Steem eco-system, but there will never be consensus about that, because such routes are usually not attractive for whales.

It's the whales that determine what's trending (simply from calculating the total SP that is backing upvotes, whether the whales delegate or not, it's still their SP and therefore their choice and their responsibility).

I would argue that the accounts powering the bots (delegating their SP) are the true bot owners. Just like berniesanders' accounts power randowhale.

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ahmadmanga (65) · 7 years ago

but there will never be consensus about that, because such routes are usually not attractive for whales.

That's part of what I meant... But you made a good point:

I would argue that the accounts powering the bots (delegating their SP) are the true bot owners. Just like berniesanders' accounts power randowhale.

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ahmadmanga (65) · 7 years ago (edited)

Can you tell me about them briefly? or give me a link to them if there was any?

I could think of at least 3 different effective ways to get the focus on quality content within the Steem eco-system

Because I have ideas too, myself but rather than focusing on good content, they would just make the bad content easier to ignore.

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https://steemit.com/utopian-io/@fitzgibbon/proposal-maximum-rewards-based-on-reputation

fitzgibbon (61) · 7 years ago (edited)

My favourite solution is to upgrade the reputation system and limit maximum rewards based on reputation. Reputation should be determined like we determine our witness votes (https://steemit.com/~witnesses), so instead of reputation gained by massive (bought) upvotes on a post, it's something that can be given and taken-away depending on your actions. When voting for someone as "Good Content Creator" you are vouching for someone. It should also come with a negative option "Bad Actor", which would instantly destroy spammers, scammers and the likes.

ahmadmanga (65) · 7 years ago

This could be good idea actually, I like the reputation system of steamtrades. But the rep in there is basing on only one thing it won't fit with steemit system.

Your idea of voting like a witness is better, I think it can be easily abused (make +1000 accounts and make them +rep people you like and -rep people you don't like.) But it's still a good proposal.

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fitzgibbon (61) · 7 years ago

Witness votes are stake-weighted, and 'Good Quality Content Creator' would also be stake weighted.

Create 1000 accounts and you have gained no extra reputation.

Did you check how witness votes work in Steem right now?

ahmadmanga (65) · 7 years ago

No I didn't ... I thought everyone had the same input. Maybe I should research it sometime.

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markrmorrisjr (70) · 7 years ago

Well, I'm here to tell you, I never had enough SP to upvote myself to 70 and my few experiments with vote buying (very recently and very small) were not helpful in that regard either. I earned every single point in the open market.

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fitzgibbon (61) · 7 years ago

Well then Mark, you seem to be the exception. Maybe I was generalizing, so good point!

Oh and well done by the way!

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markrmorrisjr (70) · 7 years ago

The only reason there can never be true consensus on steemit, is the weighted vote prevents it.

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fitzgibbon (61) · 7 years ago

Well what would you consider to be true consensus? 1 vote 1 count (the democratic way) isn't going to work either under the current circumstances, since some people have multiple accounts.

And the whole DPOS idea is, that if you have more to lose, you will usually be inclined to opt for the things that positively impact the community more than the ones that are not so much "vested".

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valued-customer (67) · 7 years ago

While rep is gamable, delivered just like financial rewards and can be bought, it is far less fungible, as it isn't tranferrable as is Steem or SBD. That means hordes of bots won't have the rep to Sybil attack the witnesses with if witness votes are based on rep-weighted votes--unlike the current system which requires only money to control the platform.

While the DPOS idea is sound as far as you take it in the above comment, clearly ROI based on circlejerks, delegation, and bots severely compromises it's ability to influence whales to act so as to benefit the platform as a whole.

The trending page is a view into how DPOS is encouraging good content. A better view is to examine how Steem is increasingly concentrated in accounts that have more of it.

DPOS is the best way to encourage profiteering, not content creation.

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fitzgibbon (61) · 7 years ago

Too bad I can't resteem a comment.

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markrmorrisjr (70) · 7 years ago

I'm not even looking for consensus on post votes, but there should be a better way for us to weigh in on the platform and how it's run.

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markrmorrisjr (70) · 7 years ago

It was a lot better in the beginning. At least those who rode the top were doing so based on actual votes and it was all out in the open. And there were more faces than now, when there are many times as many users.

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fitzgibbon (61) · 7 years ago

I wish I was around at Steemit in 2016! Feels like I'm late to the party, I don't always feel the best is yet to come!

I do usually think the best is yet to come for Steem, but sometimes I see things here that make me doubt my confirmation bias.

markrmorrisjr (70) · 7 years ago

Well, it will be better, or worse, not dependent on the platform, but on how we all manage it. So, as we build and grow, we can make positive change, or let things keep going the way they're going. Come follow me, I'll show you what I mean, man.

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fitzgibbon (61) · 7 years ago

I follow you Mark, lead me into fields of gold and realms where content is king!

markrmorrisjr (70) · 7 years ago

BAHAHAHAHAHAHA! If you find it, send me gps coordinates, I seem to be lost at the moment.

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aggroed (78) · 7 years ago

Bernie once a week I pay to get a post into trending. It's a panel discussion that supports and grows a specific community like artists, musicians, or lets the community hear from witnesses.

I think the metcalf law approach is correct. Double the number of users and quadruple the price. I'm hosting these events because I think it engages people and helps grow and support the various communities. We need these communities.

Here are my last posts where I didn't post a community event.

$24, 38, 16, 36, 44, 40, 46

Pretty sure that doesn't qualify as pool rape or top author category. There's not an event this Saturday. But there is next week. I'm gonna help that post along too.

It's frustrating you see this as troubling behavior, but you're free to do as you will. I doubt I can convince you otherwise.

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berniesanders (77) · 7 years ago (edited)

You can’t, mainly because I don’t see circle jerk content at the top of trending contributing to what you claim you’re trying to accomplish here.

And THAT is the content you choose to promote.

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10 votes

aggroed (78) · 7 years ago

Have you looked at my page and the resteems on it? That's the content I choose to promote. How many top trending articles do you see on there that I'm upvoting or resteeming? Pretty sure it's mostly new users and a handful of dev projects that are cool.

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berniesanders (77) · 7 years ago

I stopped looking at your page once I realized your true intentions here.

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10 votes

aggroed (78) · 7 years ago

My true intentions? what are those Bernie?

You can view how I delegate 70k+ of my 80k SP here: http://steemreports.com/delegation-info/?account=aggroed

You can view how I control a 120k SP account and don't use it to self vote. There's exactly 1 self-vote in the last two weeks, and I actually think it's a mistake by one of the mods with access:
http://steemreports.com/outgoing-votes-info/?account=minnowsupport&days=14

A lot of what you do is solid. This attack is just weird...

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berniesanders (77) · 7 years ago

And the other 99% go to Steemit circle-jerk content, I actually wish I didn't take look at your page now...

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10 votes

aggroed (78) · 7 years ago

Can you site examples here Bernie? My wall is filled with minnow resteems and votes. You're barking up the wrong tree here.

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berniesanders (77) · 7 years ago

I think this one being in your feed says enough... https://steemit.com/steem/@timcliff/the-steem-shilling-contest-round-2-300-steem-in-prizes

Did you read the post? Do you encourage your followers to "shill" something like this, misleading people into coming here?

"Steem has paid out over $20,000,000 in rewards to users since June 2016."

penderis (63) · 7 years ago

He is not wrong, he promotes post that do benefit the community and assuming people who are on steemit more than 1 day still view that cesspit of a trending page, that would be something worth seeing. I like how @mobbs states it and that would be the route to go it seems , do not "punish" a select few , you need to "punish" all equally, because the amount of low ranking bot votes that go out on trash if summed up will probably also equal that of those who can afford the big votes and obviously then show on the radar as a result. Example I don't care how nice pinay is if she relied only on her followers she would be taking quite a hit. But ey once you earn more you gotta keep that wage gap anyway you can. Bots are allowed and I would even go so far as to encourage everyone to use them , but a cap should be made so this in itself results in a distribution of wealth instead of it takes money to make money.

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ahmadmanga (65) · 7 years ago

My stance is something like this too... I only use bots on my posts I think they deserve more payout or visibility. I wish everyone uses them that way too.

Bots are allowed and I would even go so far as to encourage everyone to use them , but a cap should be made so this in itself results in a distribution of wealth instead of it takes money to make money.

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whatsup (75) · 7 years ago

While I see the problems with Bernie's suggestion. I quit voting for your witness and no longer feel excitement for your minnow program for the same reasons.

Why don't you pick a nice minnow out of your pond each week, let them make the annoucement and vote that shit up! I will back you 100%.

Anyway, none of my business, but it is annoying.

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dolphinschool (42) · 7 years ago

But why do you even need to do this? The bots are what created this almost entire lack of human interaction to begin with. Half the accounts you look at now, have delegated steem, they can't upvote shit, because they've rented out their power. That's not what the design of the platform was based on.

https://steemit.com/@saleem12

memesteemit (59) · 7 years ago

How about guys like this that post a picture of an animal, then tell you about how it is an animal and it likes to eat plants, and can be used for meat, lol. A lot of value added there, thanks for the education:

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matthewtiii (60) · 7 years ago

Haha! This is camel, camel has hump! Riveting!

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abh12345 (76) · 7 years ago

Could be a plan. Tough to list the 'top 50 rewarded' authors as I guess it changes week to week - or perhaps not!?

A 'non-promoted' trending/hot page would be nice too?

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berniesanders (77) · 7 years ago

This list rarely changes. It’s been the same people for the past year at this point.

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12 votes

seento (44) · 7 years ago

No where is fair then, thought the idea of decentralised social media is to promote equity but now shortcut has been introduced through bit and vote buying.

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charitybot (63) · 7 years ago

Vote buying isn't the root source of the inequality, the pre-mine and wealth imbalances that predated steem or steemit contributed more to the distribution of steem. But vote buying and circular voting by already large accounts does ensure that smaller accounts never see the light of day on the trending page.

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penderis (63) · 7 years ago

In what world does allowing people complete freedom and to just manage each other would there ever be equity? The foundation of this system is no different than that of any other social network, the sheep will always praise the wolve .

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sjennon (66) · 7 years ago

Not sure how to solve this issue, but there definitely is a problem.

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wilfredn (51) · 7 years ago (edited)

Or a less paternalistic way might be the option to filter away posts by percentage of bot upvotes on the trending page. So I can choose to only see posts with less than 50% bot upvotes?

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compleatgamester (44) · 7 years ago (edited)

The problem isn't the bots or the existence of whales. The problem is much deeper and it is systemic - what can these whales and their bots do with that power?

Well the answer is obvious - they can use it to amass even more power and at a faster rate than those below them. It is a positive feedback loop which is bound to destroy Steem as it would any other community.

In other words, a comunity where "might is right" is the primary law of the land isn't really a community... It can barely be called a society.

It is not the whales fault, they simply do what is required to survive and prosper in the conditions given to them. And if they refuse to do so, someone else will. Yes, natural selection is a bitch.

So the problem lies firmly in the system, the conditions given to those evolutionary units we call "users", the rules of the game they play. And my prime question is, is it possible to change these rules at this late date? I dont know how steem blockchain relly works under the hood and if it is possible to change how upvotes and (especially) flags function vis-a-vis rewards? Because therein lies the crux of the problem. If the answer is no then I don't see any hope for the platform as the rules of the social game set by it are unsustainable for any social system. Can anyone more knowledgeable provide me with an answer to this question?

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6 votes

valued-customer (67) · 7 years ago

"...is it possible to change these rules..."

All the rules of blockchains and social media platforms are the code. Code is infinitely mutable. The code is what it is, however, for reasons. This is the code those that control the top witnesses want, because it is what makes it possible for them to concentrate more and more Steem into their accounts.

The question isn't really 'can the code be changed', but 'why would they want to change it?'.

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compleatgamester (44) · 7 years ago (edited)

Well, it is Game Theory again, isn't it?
The old sheep and wolves equation....
At one point the wolves must stop ravaging the sheep otherwise they will be left without food and starve. At the moment, the sheep seem to be willing to come in, but this can change quite rapidly. It would be interesting to see what are the retention rates for the platform.

(btw "sheep and wolves" isn't anything derogatory. Sheep are members of the society who tend towards altruism while wolves tend towards selfishness. Any healthy and stable society needs both in order to survive and progress.)

The system has been gamed for the wolves, from the beginning. Now it is all up to them - either they realize that it is to their best interest to be at least a bit altruistic and so keep the equilibrium or they will self-destruct. In this case history can't help us in our predictions because it can really go either way... Rapa Nui or Byzantium. Who knows? Whatever happens I don't think it will go quietly, without some kind of upheaval or revolution. That is the only historical constant in similar societal cases.

friendly-fenix (59) · 7 years ago

Hey Bernie, what do you think of this idea/solution to your problem, maybe?

https://steemit.com/steemit/@friendly-fenix/proposal-of-features-for-steemit-difficulty-levels

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tuanis (59) · 7 years ago

Congratulations @friendly-fenix! You have received a vote as part of @friendly-fenix donation to this project.
I will be able to help more #minnows

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skreza (61) · 7 years ago

The bot owners are seeking maximum profitability for their wallets.. I guess they won't do anything to lose some of their income unless you offer them an alternative option?

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moeknows (60) · 7 years ago

While I support this suggestion, I think the real change has to happen at the site level. Change the trending algorithm. Make all upvotes equal in terms of trending. Meaning, an upvote from @freedom would still be worth whatever it's worth, but would not count towards trending any more than an upvote from me.

I think an algorithm based on a combination of unique comments and number/weight of upvotes would be better.

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klye (73) · 7 years ago

Have you got a script to smash thy foe or do you need one created?

Always up for arming everyone with bots to make flag wars less likely to cause stress on the attacker... :P

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berniesanders (77) · 7 years ago

I’m good for now, appreciate the offer dude.

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9 votes

uknowjpbitcoin (0) · 7 years ago (edited)

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Reveal Comment

klye (73) · 7 years ago

No worries. While some may scoff at your views and commentary I've learned you're onto something long ago.

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thabiggdogg (56) · 7 years ago

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mejustandrew (58) · 7 years ago

Well now... This is what I think won't happen whatever you or anyone of us will do. The top 50 rewarded authors, do you imagine how profitable is that for bot owners? Who would be so crazy to ban these guys?

albertvhons (64) · 7 years ago

i strongly disagree with you @berniesanders,
the better suggestion is to stop all voting bid bots.

this voting bidvots ruin steemit!

_{I used bidbots since steemit allow it, but I don't like it!}

edicted (72) · 7 years ago

The problem with Steemit isn't bots it is steemit itself. It's embarrassing how the trending tab works. It's embarrassing how the feed works. It's embarrassing how flags work.

Steemit is a chicken running around with it's head cut off because there are no rewards for strong leadership and teamwork. Good thing we get some time to figure it all out. I've yet to see the "competition".

valued-customer (67) · 7 years ago

The market for Steemit is controlled by Steem. Those that possess the Steem control Steemit, through the witnesses, who are voted in by votes based on stake.

This isn't designed to encourage good content, but rather profiteering, since that's what rewards whales.

It will appear to be senseless if you look at it from a different perspective. The code robustly rewards stake as it is.

It's not senseless at all.

It's profitable.

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edicted (72) · 7 years ago

Yeah I think it really just frustrates people that they push the whole Proof-Of-Brain thing.

A better front end will get made eventually by someone... just gotta wait.

tehshizno (51) · 7 years ago (edited)

I don't understand why bots are even allowed here. All the major social media platforms outright forbid botting views and upvotes and yet here, where your earnings are even more bound to the post visibility the practice is tolerated and bots thrive. It makes no sense - there is a reason why these mechanics are not allowed even on platforms where you can't monetize your content. It puts small and new content creators in a significant disadvantage. The problem is even bigger here because there are now actors known for botting so their followers save the votes for creators that are bound to bring larger curation rewards due to botting.

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thecastle (68) · 7 years ago

I don't understand why bots are even allowed here.

There is no central authority to control bots.

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kryzsec (59) · 7 years ago

Twitter allows bots, same with instagram. Facebook, while does explicitly allow them provides an API that you can make a bot with as well. Name a single social media that actively deter bots? If there is an API given then people will make internal bots, without an API then they will just use a library that allows for the interaction with HTML elements... The point is that it is effectively impossible to stop bots without adding in consistent and unique items like google captcha or other randomized bot deterrents and even those aren't perfect deterrents.

charitybot (63) · 7 years ago (edited)

It's probably the same reason Steam is such a pile of shit compared to other game-selling platforms with actual customer service and human employee interaction. Just like how Valve doesn't want to actually hire anyone, Stinc also probably wants to save money on employees that could help make the website and user experience way better.

Also, there is an argument for bots and trails and automated everything to be allowed for the sake of giving investors a chance to passively earn ROI, which is an attractive feature to many and necessary if all the competitors are easier to earn passively with.

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moemanmoesly (67) · 7 years ago

I agree the trending tab is rubbish...

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missioncontrol (44) · 7 years ago

Surely (as @yabapmatt suggested) the best option is to get rid of the trending page, and replace it (not as @yabapmatt suggested) with a page using machine learning to suggest content you like to you.

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valued-customer (67) · 7 years ago

Except that Goolag shows just how that can be manipulated for profit, propaganda, and censorship purposes.

Why turn to bots to determine quality on a social media platform? Isn't the whole idea of social media that people (society) interact on it? AI is just bots by another name.

Steemit is becoming less and less of a social media platform, and more and more a Steem mining device run by bots.

jga (65) · 7 years ago

I agree with you. Totally right!

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moemanmoesly (67) · 7 years ago

I agree with this...

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isnochys (66) · 7 years ago

If the bots would stop, we would just have the same crowd, whale circle jerking.
That wouldn't make any difference..saddly
:(

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prometheus21 (54) · 7 years ago

You are absolutely correct

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chekohler (70) · 7 years ago

For a platform that is supposed to decentralize curation it seems even more skewed and centered towards those who spend money on the platform! I might as well just set up insane article on Facebook and pay users to see my content and sell ad space on my content

It’s also going to discourage those producing content and not getting rewarded fairly for their efforts! There is way to much mediocre content trending taking away space of the real content creators

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thomashobbes (30) · 7 years ago

so what will you do @berniesanders

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taurus1983 (55) · 7 years ago

Hi @berniesanders, I agree with you.
Trending page is shit.
Why are there only rubbish and useless post trending on Steemit?

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fivefiveeleven (64) · 7 years ago

Couldn't agree more with this one, trending page is boring as fuck and most of the pool reward is for the same users everyday.

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sisygoboom (64) · 7 years ago

Couldn't agree more, it's not a great look for minnows just joining to realize there's a monopoly of sorts on the reward pool.

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syeedali (16) · 7 years ago

Yeah. I'm on day one and I'm just learning this.

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sisygoboom (64) · 7 years ago

Stick in bro, you'll find your way if you work hard and socialize

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travellingwomen (51) · 7 years ago

Exactly you are right I

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thatkidsblack (66) · 7 years ago

Or at least give people cooldown times? I mean, a basic tool to stop spamming in any skill-based game is a cooldown. You can’t use this skill for the next 30 minutes, 6 hours, etc. It could be applied if you’re already a certain Rep, or your prior usage indicates you’ve had your ride.

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enforcer48 (68) · 7 years ago (edited)

Like you won't be shown on the Trending tab if you have already made it there in the past 24-72 hours? It will certainly add a little more diversity to the content list.

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ahmadmanga (65) · 7 years ago

That will be great if it happened, but at the same time it will prevent some people's posts from being there, since the trending is already bad I think it will make it better but I hope there's a better solution.

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bearbear613 (67) · 7 years ago

when you are the “head” of a community, you reap the most rewards and benefits.

At least there’s a whale who recognizes what REALLY goes in here. IDK if that’s wrong or right on a decentralized platform. I do see the “tribes”, but I guess I have always been kinda a loner in real life. Sometimes I wish I can have that SP to cover my ass when the flag button itches for me to press it.

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erlina-aurora (33) · 7 years ago

I support you as I could, i wish this platform would be better. thank for this info.

Regards
@erlina-aurora

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jack15 (25) · 7 years ago

DQmVhYYRKd7sokLeWRQkhDh7qizHix32x1ArpT1kfS1YCHS_640x480.jpg

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teteh8993 (44) · 7 years ago

Very good

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jesusbatallar (58) · 7 years ago

Maybe the solution is to open the flag bots market 😈

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berniesanders (77) · 7 years ago

Whoever says they'd pay for a flag is full of shit. There is nothing to gain by buying a flag.

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kryzsec (59) · 7 years ago

Pretty sure I offered to buy flags from you on a comment on one of my posts, just saying.

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isnochys (66) · 7 years ago

Exactly. No one does it and there is a reason for it.. Nothing to be gained. On both sides.
I tried it and it failed miserably.

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jesusbatallar (58) · 7 years ago (edited)

so what about hendrix22 who pays sbd if you flag haejin?

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thabiggdogg (56) · 7 years ago

@hendrixx22 PAYS YA

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valued-customer (67) · 7 years ago

@bloom says he is a 'professional flagger'. His wallet shows inflows of funds from offchain. There is a purpose in censoring Steemit content by folks with particular interests.

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kayceefresh (56) · 7 years ago

Later they will be accusing minnows for draining the reward pool, some should be done on those bid bots, that's why the price of steem keep dumping.

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adisrivastav (56) · 7 years ago (edited)

Thank you for bringing this to the light!! its just ridiculous there is dishonesty everywhere !

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kryzsec (59) · 7 years ago

Personally I still think we should change the reward scheme from linear to something that will give an effective cap (as in a reward cap that can be exceeded but doing so would require an amount of MVests that will never be in existence) like logarithmic or square root or something... But I also feel that if a post has been rewarded more that flags should count towards it more as in if a post is at $1 then a $0.20 flag should be worth around $0.20 but if the post is at $500 a $0.20 flag should be worth something like $0.50 or something (I am just pulling numbers out of my ass) the point is the as the value of a post approaches its limits, the value of flags will increase semi-proportionally (actually might be logarithmically to make sense) and the value of upvoted will decrease at a semi-proportional rate.

This may not stop people from getting absurdly high rewards but it will make it difficult and make stopping collusive voting and abusive behaviors a lot easier.

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doktor.pyramidis (42) · 7 years ago

Thank you for your support & thoughts, don´t let downrating stop truth ;)

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fuhreresu (46) · 7 years ago

He without sin should cast the first stone

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filotasriza3 (66) · 7 years ago

i've expecting a post like this from you! i remember the first months i was on steemit and how much time i spent in trending page. to me those were the best quality posts out there. there wasn't a single day without me checking the trending page about 5 times and reading the post.

Nowadays i don't even bother to read it, my hand will move on it's own and click to see the upvotes their received and then my nerves will only calm with a lot of tea

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daan (68) · 7 years ago

You know what would be even better? If a majority of bot owners could come to a consensus to suspend all of their services for a limited amount of time and switch over to manually curating for a couple of days. This isn't going to cause any permanent change of course, but it would be a nice gesture towards the community.

Chances that this would happen are pretty much non-existent though and it's easy for me to suggest something like this, since I don't have a big investment tied into Steemit. I'm just curious what the Trending and Hot pages would look like if there was no option for buying upvotes.

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berniesanders (77) · 7 years ago

I would be down for that.

9 votes

muslemtumin21 (53) · 7 years ago

Sabar @bernieanders

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https://steemit.com/steemit/@svkrulze/proposal-how-to-fix-the-broken-trending-page

svkrulze (52) · 7 years ago

I think it's time to decouple votes from trending pages. It should be based on resteems and SP should have no impact in that. Here's a detailed post on this.

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asikanik (43) · 7 years ago

Thanks to share this post. Happy steeming.

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joelgonz1982 (60) · 7 years ago

in that case that can be done, that user have enough money to invest in bot again and again, not like us that we have to use the bot with little money and most of the time invest in bot brings loss to my blog and my coin purse.

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frdem3dot0 (58) · 7 years ago

I fully agree that some measures have to be taken against bot-operators. Them blocking some people may be a start, but I think what we need is the option to make negative sp leasing. For more details see: link

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hasanuddin (56) · 7 years ago

always fun reading your writing ....

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ridoykhan22 (66) · 7 years ago

thats true

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us007 (21) · 7 years ago

wow very excellent post

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gokhan83kurt (57) · 7 years ago

Steemit’s never been a fair medium. And seems like it’ll never be.

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ahmedjubayer (45) · 7 years ago

Hey @berniesanders, great post! I enjoyed your content. Keep up the good work! It's always nice to see good content here on Steemit! :)

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ninegags (51) · 7 years ago

That's the reason that i don't go anymore to the trending page, most posts there dont appeal me. Your proposal makes sense @berniesanders

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einstei1 (53) · 7 years ago

@hr1 you right we support you and you are the great caring of people.
Hope people understand your golden words and new ideas, we have to implement your idea these are much good thanks for caring sir @hr1

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fujaxxi (58) · 7 years ago

give the opportunity for a small fish to become the top writer

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promize123 (48) · 7 years ago

I believe those people up on their have been long in the business than others so they kind of deserve it. But it's still right to give others the chance to be there to, but blocking them is quite harsh you know

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tyrex (54) · 7 years ago

Resteemed and upvoted for aggrandizement.

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khairulmuammar (66) · 7 years ago

yes I am also sick of seeing their faces, surely they play from behind with boots. they deserve a proper punishment

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zaky06 (25) · 7 years ago

good post..👍👍

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dolphinschool (42) · 7 years ago

Bernie, this is great, but you're still allowing the top spots to go to the highest bidder and not subjecting them to the crowd. They need to get there on their own. Perhaps limits on vote buying are in order.

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doodledanga (39) · 7 years ago

I think that a RANDOM category would also help people here and there.

Thank you bernie for posting this to help build a better future for all in the platform.

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bluefoxy (45) · 7 years ago

I'm starting a flagging war on vote selling bots. I don't want to flag personal accounts but the rule breaking and artificial inflation has to stop. #OperationRobinhood
Some people don't know any better but the rules are clearly listed under FAQs

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aremuadekunle (49) · 7 years ago

Well, my opinion is that the upvote bots should be controlled and there should be a limit to the amount of post you can promote per day. @berniesanders here's a project going on to support minnows with good and original contents. You can check it out at your convenient time. MFP, SUPPORTING MINNOWS WITH GOOD CONTENTS Thanks.

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raymondgarciarn (28) · 7 years ago

😱

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sardrt (76) · 7 years ago

There are many manual care projects that try to reward quality content but Many have no support. You should worry about supporting these projects.

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tarran (46) · 7 years ago

Do using bots actually work? I wasn't sure about them and thought they were more hassle than they're worth yet many accounts and people seem to use them so maybe it's the thing to do to boost your SP and Steem?

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balianassar (48) · 7 years ago

I'm just one word that makes us happy, I like steembots

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https://steemit.com/indonesia/@moeslimyusuf/rasullullah-sangat-saya-kepada-kucing-suggestions-are-very-looking-to-the-cat-73bd0381604c6

moeslimyusuf (48) · 7 years ago

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offgridlife (74) · 7 years ago

Thanks - The Bots are killing Steemit.

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timhau21 (48) · 7 years ago

Thank you for speaking out for the lower class people :)

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yonnydg (36) · 7 years ago (edited)

Thank you, friend @hr1 , for voting, I follow you. regards

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kpreddy (59) · 7 years ago

Yeah ! I observed same thing. If a person has good steemit power then he is getting rewarded for every shit he is posting.This is not fair and legitimate content is missing out

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medicinaluse (53) · 7 years ago

Agreed with your post, this is so true. us new content curators need a chance!

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indonesional (39) · 7 years ago

Salam admin...
Mohon upvote me...

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petrodollar (44) · 7 years ago

I'm sure, all steemit users use bots, especially beginners, definitely pingin fast rise level and income factor is quite fast from the bot. so the bot indirectly has affected the steemian to speed up the up vote process. I am also a bot user. if there is a plagiarism post then cheetah will soon detect.

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valued-customer (67) · 7 years ago (edited)

I don't use votebots. I never have, and I never will. I know others that don't, haven't, and won't either.

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gungho (72) · 7 years ago

Amen!

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artwatch (63) · 7 years ago

Who even goes to trending anymore? Everybody knows its complete bullshit. I mean does anyone even look there anymore? I sure the fuck don't. It is my feed of people I am following that I am checking on.

Everybody knows the site just regurgitates the same shit day and day out if you don't get your own feed .... man...like what barren wasteland of content are you living in, if your checking on the trending page here.

Sad.

Check anywhere but trending for real content.

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trincowski (68) · 7 years ago

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