Is up-voting your own post a good or a bad idea?
In this post I will examine two extreme cases; Minnows and Whales, Dolphins will be somewhere in between.
How can Whales throw Minnows a bone and at the same time strengthen their investment?
There has been some discussion in recent days on upvoting your own comments. This analysis is a discussion on upvoting your own posts rather than comments.
Minnows
For the majority of Steemians upvoting your own post is a good idea, it means you get a share of the curation rewards that are generated by votes on your post. So instead of getting 75% of the payout value you get more than 75%. Probably not a lot more but it depends on who votes for you.
Whales
For Whales on the other hand upvoting your own post makes little economic sense. Don't think value of post, think value of investment!
When a Whale upvotes his/her own post a few things happen.
- The Dollar value of the post increases. 1m Dollars of Steem Power gives about 400 Dollars from an upvote at time of writing.
- The post may make it to the trending page attracting other votes and more money. You "win" twice because you get both Author and Curation Rewards.
- The Author/Whale gets a bigger share of the posts curation rewards then if they had voted later. They get a bigger slice than just the 75% author payout.
Posting is not all about money
Without considering the Economics of the decision to upvote your own post the most direct negative effect is you get little feedback as to what is a good post and a bad post. All Whale posts with a self upvote will earn $$$$.
I am not a Whale but I have noticed this since the HF19 with my own posts. I upvote my own post then I use @randowhale to upvote more. Sure I am getting great payouts but little feedback on what works and what doesn't.
What if you didn't upvote your post at the start and let it grow organically at first and upvote later?
The most obvious thing is that Minnows will be more likely to upvote you. They would get a share of the curation from the $400 upvote you add later. It won't affect your payout materially but it could be a big deal for them.
You might even consider not voting for your post and letting the reward pool for the day/week be shared among other authors for the good of the system.
The Game
Before getting to the Economics of voting lets have a recap of an old post where @dan described the Game as he saw it, which I believe is still valid.
Curation is a game for whales and dolphins. Minnows are unlikely to earn any significant return on their votes. Minnows should stick to posting and commenting.
The Economics
Having considered some of the pros and cons of not self upvoting lets have a more detailed look at the economics from a Whales perspective. We will consider first "The Game" where a Whale is competing with Minnows for rewarding his own post and secondly the situation where the Whale is competing with other Whales for rewarding his own post.
The following analysis is based on the post HF19 view of rewards and how they are shared among curators with the following assumptions:
- Ignoring the Penalty for the first 30 minutes
- Only considering a simplistic scenario where there are 4 votes
- Ignoring Voting Power
- Assumes a Whale with a $1m investment gives $400 per per upvote
Whales vs Minnows
If the Whale is only competing with minnows for votes it doesn't matter when he/she votes. The effect on the whales payout is only marginal if he votes first or last, but there is a large impact on the minnows.
- If the Whale votes first the Minnows get nothing
- If the Whale votes later the Minnows get something meaningful
8 cents to a minnow can be a huge deal. Its nothing to a whale. On top of that Minnows can curate much more than a Whale can so if they were earning cents on lots of posts it would be significant for them and will improve the diversity and quality of the content on Steemit.
A Simple Voting Model
Payouts where the Whale doesn't upvote his post first, i.e. the Whale still upvotes but after the Minnows
| Voter 1 | Voter 2 | Voter 3 | Voter 4 | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Vote Value | 0.10 | 0.10 | 0.50 | 401.00 |
| Curation from Vote | 0.03 | 0.03 | 0.13 | 100.25 |
| Curation Allocation Vote 1 | 0.03 | 0.01 | 0.09 | 100.08 |
| Curation Allocation Vote 2 | 0.01 | 0.02 | 0.12 | |
| Curation Allocation Vote 3 | 0.02 | 0.02 | ||
| Curation Allocation Vote 4 | 0.02 | |||
| Total Curation Per Voter | 0.08 | 0.06 | 0.21 | 100.08 |
| Author Payout | 401.70 | |||
| Author Total Payout | 501.78 |
What if the Whale had voted first?
| Voter 1 | Voter 2 | Voter 3 | Voter 4 | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Vote Value | 401.00 | 0.10 | 0.10 | 0.50 |
| Curation from Vote | 100.25 | 0.03 | 0.03 | 0.13 |
| Curation Allocation Vote 1 | 100.25 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 |
| Curation Allocation Vote 2 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 | |
| Curation Allocation Vote 3 | 0.00 | 0.00 | ||
| Curation Allocation Vote 4 | 0.00 | |||
| Total Curation Per Voter | 100.25 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 0.00 |
| Author Payout | 401.70 | |||
| Author Total Payout | 501.95 | |||
| Benefit for Voting First | 0.17 |
Whales vs Whales
Now lets consider a slightly different scenario. In this second scenario we will see the payments are skewed a bit for the Whale. He loses out by not upvoting his own post first, but only 5% on the overall payout of the post.
Payouts where the Whale doesn't upvote his post first, i.e. the Whale still upvotes but after the other Whales
| Voter 1 | Voter 2 | Voter 3 | Voter 4 | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Vote Value | 400.00 | 400.00 | 400.00 | 401.00 |
| Curation from Vote | 100.00 | 100.00 | 100.00 | 100.25 |
| Curation Allocation Vote 1 | 100.00 | 50.00 | 33.33 | 25.11 |
| Curation Allocation Vote 2 | 0.01 | 0.01 | 0.03 | |
| Curation Allocation Vote 3 | 0.01 | 0.01 | ||
| Curation Allocation Vote 4 | 0.01 | |||
| Total Curation Per Voter | 100.03 | 50.01 | 33.36 | 25.11 |
| Author Payout | 1,601.00 | |||
| Author Total Payout | 1,626.11 |
What if the Whale had voted first?
| Voter 1 | Voter 2 | Voter 3 | Voter 4 | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Vote Value | 401.00 | 400.00 | 400.00 | 400.00 |
| Curation from Vote | 100.25 | 100.00 | 100.00 | 100.00 |
| Curation Allocation Vote 1 | 100.25 | 49.94 | 33.31 | 24.98 |
| Curation Allocation Vote 2 | 0.01 | 0.01 | 0.03 | |
| Curation Allocation Vote 3 | 0.01 | 0.01 | ||
| Curation Allocation Vote 4 | 0.01 | |||
| Total Curation Per Voter | 100.28 | 49.95 | 33.34 | 24.98 |
| Author Payout | 1,601.00 | |||
| Author Total Payout | 1,701.28 | |||
| Benefit for Voting First | 75.17 |
In reality would Whales be competing with Minnows or Whales?
If Whales just voted for each other Steemit wouldn't last very long. The Economic Value of the platform would quickly evaporate and Steemit would become little more than a Ponzy Scheme.
Conclusion
So the battle between Whales for curation rewards on their posts is really just a battle against the Minnows. In that case it doesn't matter Economically to the Whale if they upvote their own post initially or wait for a period to let other people get some curation rewards.
The Whale may even choose not to upvote it at all if they are really savvy investors.
The only "adverse" implication for the Whale is they will have less chance of making it to the trending page but that means that other content will organically make it to their instead. It also would lead to a diversification of content and authors on the platform. In Economic terms this is a much better use of a Whales capital than self upvoting their own post.
Remember the Whale I am talking about has 1m Dollars invested in Steemit. If the price of Steem goes up by 1 cent this guy makes about 5,000 dollars.
I have not provided analysis of the effect of Whale Bots. In the short term these could earn significant curation rewards however again I would propose this would not make much sense Economically. They would just be draining the platform of value and reducing the value of their overall investment.
References
Reading old posts can be confusing because often things have changed here on Steemit. We just had HF19! but the following list of references are invaluable to understand how the rewards are intended to work.
- https://steemit.com/steem/@dantheman/steem-whales-voting-perspective
- https://steemit.com/steem/@dantheman/curation-rewards-and-voting-incentive
- https://steemit.com/steem-help/@biophil/the-ultimate-guide-to-voting-power-with-cartoons-formulas-and-code-references
- https://steemit.com/steem/@tuck-fheman/how-is-voting-power-determined-in-steem
Thank you for reading this. I write on Steemit about Blockchain, Cryptocurrency, Travel and lots of random topics.
Images are from https://pixabay.com/.
I bought STEEM to vote for myself and few others. Where is the problem?
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Dont see any problem each one do what he wants, invest can give you more so its really nice. I do it myself and will do more when i will gain power.
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it's not so much of a problem for those who are whales, rather an exercise in applied cryptoecnomics.
The current system is a bit broken and it has allowed low quality content and shameless self promoters who are not contributing to the intended purpose of the system.
Most seem to be more concerned how they can maximize their rewards over the integrity of the content and interactions they are actually contributing.
It's understandable. You have to produce money to survive. You can't put a lot of effort into content and interactions that doesn't reward you.
I believe slow and steady wins the race and integrity shines through within the network, because other like minded people will follow and endorse your content the more thoughtful and genuine you are - it just tales a lot more effort and time than most people want to spin.
If people can cut corners, they will and especially if there is money on the line.
At that point, why not just start a spam blog for affiliate revenue and crank out churn and burn content for the lowest common denominator.
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"I believe slow and steady wins the race and integrity shines through within the network, because other like minded people will follow and endorse your content the more thoughtful and genuine you are - it just takes a lot more effort and time than most people want to spin."
You nailed it.
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I couldnt agree more
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Resteemed, a very good article to post at a time when many people are looking for these exact answers. I learned a thing or two from reading this it will be interesting to see what kind of long term effects this hard fork will have on Steemit. Thanks for a great blog post @eroche
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Yes bro this is a good article to resteem this broke down the payout down for me exactly how I wanted to learn it very easy to understand.
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Thanks for the support @mallorcaman, HF19 has put a very different perspective on Steemit for me.
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A really good article. I'm new to the platform but thanks to articles like this I'm starting to understand this fascinating world of Steemit a lot better.
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He @all-life welcome to Steemit. There is a learning curve no doubt but feel free to ask any questions.
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Thanks so much @eroche for both the vote and the kind welcome comment! :)
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Great post! Especially like the detailed examples of different scenarios
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Thanks so much.
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Thanks for your great explanation @eroche. Now I understand I how it work. I tried to upvote after 30 minutes and made sure that I'm among the earliest upvoter for the posts that appear on 'hot' but earn nothing but I got some curation when I upvoted early on the post that only show a small pay out. Now I understand why... So I'll get nothing if I upvote a post that's already being upvoted by a whale or dolphin. Thanks again!
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It's recommend commenting on posts and engaging with people, make some interesting observations and you may get lucrative upvotes.
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When they even have it as feature pre-selected I don`t think it is a problem at all. I mean - lol... thats somehow even human (when they normally act like pigs) :)
Greetings!
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:)
For most users though I think it is a fair default selection.
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I always thought upvoting your own post was frowned upon?
So you are saying it's ok to upvote your own post, just choose when you upvote it?
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If your a minnow your should definitely upvote your own post. You will get a bigger share of the payout, which depends on who votes for you.
If your a whale I think it makes more economic sense not to upvote your own posts, especially not immediately after you post it.
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pls what is the difference between Minnows and Whale on steemit. i am new here.
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It's just a term which people use to describe how much steem power they have. Small fish are minnows, big fish are the whales.
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Def wish i could* resteem this!
Great article, helpful for newbs like myself...
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Thanks so much, and welcome to Steemit by the way. I see you have just joined.
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Thank you for this explanation! Definitely takes the mystery out of self-voting. I was unsure whether or not it was a good idea but your article clears things up nicely.
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Great blog. Thanks
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Thank you for the detailed analysis and the links. Bookmarked this post. The Steemit economy is very advanced as it's based on mathematics and game theory. People often ask where the money come from on Steemit. Could you please advice what to read first to get the overall picture?
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This article may be useful, I wrote it a few months back but the message is still valid.
https://steemit.com/steemit/@eroche/where-does-steem-come-from
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this is really an useful and complex post! thanks
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Thank nice post
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Ohh why can´t we all be Dolphins? :( "Liberté, égalité, fraternité"
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haha I notice you did not upvote your post yet :)... thanks for the explanation!
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:) I wish I was a whale. Maybe one day.
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you'll get there :)
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Your waaaay closer than alot of us! It won't be too long for you 😜
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Awesome article - thanks for sharing your insights (resteemed).
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Thanks so much
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this is really insightful. thanks for sharing this post.
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Resteemed. I hope I am finally getting a little bit better of an understanding of how this works. This is a really detailed description. I hope all my followers will read it as well. #whalepower @minnowsupport
Peace and happiness from Vietnam!
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I am still getting my head around the dynamics of how this ever evolving platform works. I am glad you found this post useful. Thanks for reading and the support.
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Some idiot posted something recently telling people that they can get flagged for upvoting their own posts/comments. A lot of new members believed that. This is NOT true. Thanks for posting a correct set of reasons to upvote/not upvote.
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Wow! Thanks for showing us in the tables what can happen. You just made a seemingly difficult topic relatively easy to Understand. There's so much we still have to learn ;)
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Nicely explained. I kind of guessed the same, but now you gave the reasons with the proof. Thank you very much :)
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i found it complex at first but started to read it more slowly the details are something to be look upon ,nice post.
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Thanks @blazing.
What I am trying to get at is if your a big account holder please think twice about upvoting your own post.
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@eroche, I would like to see this feature go. For me upvoting should be a means of distinguishing between valuable and not so valuable content. This of course should not be determined by one self but by the viewer. I just raised some other questions on Steempower here: https://steemit.com/steemit/@oliver.rivers/steemvention-1-your-help-is-needed
I would love to see it redesigned a bit.
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I think there are some uses for it. Its the overuse that I am urging people to think twice about.
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Great article. Congratulations :)
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Thanks @rtdcs
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Upvoting yourself on Steemit is more or less masturbating and swallowing your own cum in order to stay alive.
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By that reasoning, upvoting someone else is giving them a blowjob and f4f is a 69.
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yeap, only THEY choose how much the cum in your mouth. (% of upvote)
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Not quite the words I would have used but you paint a very colourful picture :)
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Thanks for explaining the different scenarios and consequences of self upvoting. I would love to upvote your post but I am recovering from my crushed voting power so I will resteem this instead :)
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Thanks for the support. I think a lot of us are recovering from the voting hangover :)
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I seem to be drawn more to crypto news and steemit news while that was not my intention at all. Dunno if making money is such an attractive goal but the new crypto tech is sure exciting!
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The tech, the people and the drama are fascinating. Just look with what happened to Ethereum last week.
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Very interesting. Thank you for the post.
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Resteemed. I hope I am finally getting a little bit better of an understanding of how this works. Awesome post. Good work
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Thank you.
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Like its article so much it was very insightful and I thank you very much. This was very helpful.
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Thanks for the insight mate, great post and helps me understand a few specifics I was unclear on like the value of a whale upvote. I wish I had $1m to invest into Steemit! Hopefully after a while posting and investing some of us will get there one day :D
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One of the things I love most about steemit is that you can earn it by just posting.
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Helpful post! Thank you
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Very good analysis, it helps alleviate some of my scepticism about the validity of self upvoting but I'm still not convinced its a good thing long term.
Many users that don't understand the complexity and the way steem works see it as means to get free cash which can further separate whales from minnows.
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Thank you @blakadder. The general point of this post is to highlight how short sighted this self upvoting is.
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SOMEONES A SMARTIE PANTS
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Fantastic article but too much emphesis on whales rather than what a minnow can do. Maybe you can write another article about that?
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For minnows I would suggest writing articles and lots of comments. The wont make much from curation. Some comments can be very lucrative and a great way for increasing your rep and making connections.
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Thank you.
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Explains a lot. Thanks very much. It's early days for me and I still haven't got my head around it fully.
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Thank you for your detailed analysis!
I have a question regarding the calculations where the Whale doesn't upvote his post first.
Each whale has a vote value of $400. If a whale adds $400 to a post, $300 goes to the author and $100 goes to the voters, right? So the total author reward would be $300 * 4 = $1200 or am I missing something? Among the voters $400 will be divided. The total post value will be $400 * 4 = $1600.
In your table the total curation reward is 100.03 + 50.01 + 33.36 + 25.11 = $208,51. Shouldn't this be $400, whereby the first whale receives more than his initial $100?
Thanks for your explanation!
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The way i have presented the curation rewards in this example is with each distinct voter in a column.
I have shown the total author rewards in this much simplified example at the bottom. For the author in this example it would be 1626 or 1701, depending on when they voted.
75 dollars is a lot of money but I would argue it's not material in the context of a whale investment.
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Very interesting to know
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Very nice article. Thankyou for showing some examples using the math. It does help put it into perspective. A note to the whales "With great Power comes Great Responsibility!"
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Thanks for the information I understand alot better hope all is well and you are enjoying life, hair weekend to you and yours🙃
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This is a fascinating breakdown of otherwise confusing terms.
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I generally don't 'ft' or 'like' my own posts on other platforms; I was only really doing it because it was defaulted and I thought that's what we are supposed to do around here :::: From now on I'll be making sure that's unchecked :::: I'm all about the organic growth!
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I think for the majority of users its fine to leave it checked. Its the super big account holders who need to give it a bit more thought I think.
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Interesting. I'm still figuring out how all of those technicalities work; I think I upvoted too much when I first got on here and they wouldn't allow me to vote (Didn't have enough Steem) - had to let it build up again; still working at it but love that they're at least trying to keep people from gaming the system -
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The more I read about Upvotes, the more confused I get. So I am planning not to read about Upvotes for the next week and instead just go about commenting and upvoting whatever I feel deserves my vote.
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Hi @eroche hi @penguinpablo
This new bot. Can upvote comment in random.
Pro-tip: if you up-vote your own comment, I won't vote for you
https://steemit.com/@gentlebot
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Thank you. You explain this really well.
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Source: Giphy.com
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I am a big part of this discussion and I stopped voting myself, never on comments and not on posts. Self voting is a no no for me.
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Thank you so much @eroche I am a Minnow and this sort of information is hard to come by. How were you able to get these numbers? Still confusing to me how everything is calculated and shared.
Followed!!!!
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Hi @elysolano,
The numbers in this post were based on several sources. I created a spreadsheet model to model the voting effects, and the values for upvotes were based on what an upvote was generating at the time. Thanks for reading and for your interest. I was in your shoes a few months ago and there sure is a learning curve with Steemit but its very interesting. If I can be of any help in understanding some of the mechanics let me know.
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Really appreciate that @eroche. Doesn't the steemit community have a writer that can document all this and just have it accessible in one place?
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Just resteemed this. It was very helpful.
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Thank you very much for this post.
I was so precarious about voting for my own post. As I use busy.com to write my post and there voting for the post is standard default setting I was worried about doing something, well I will not say wrong, but let say something not likely seen by other steemians.
But your post has put me down and I will keep the default setting from busy.com and upvote my post first. But later, after I got some more followers, I think I will stop doing it.
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I upvote my own post all the time still. When you're a smaller fish you need all the exposure you can get. Happy Steeming.
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Excellent post. Very clear even for the numerically challenged such as myself. You must have been maths teacher's pet!
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Thanks how did you guess?
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Wow, thank you so much for writing this! I know this was posted 7 months ago now, but I'm still definitely wrapping my head around everything here and I'd imagine this will be very helpful to others who are new to Steemit or even yet to come. I genuinely appreciate the effort that went into this post - made it super easy to understand and digest, especially for a baby minnow like myself, haha. Keep up the good work! :)
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this is really well written so upvoted and resteemed
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This is a very useful analysis. I do hope that it will impact positively on how minnows, whales and dolphins upvote contents.
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Thank you @youhelper, spread the word.
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Thanks for the great info!
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Is there any way that Steemit is looking to make the ecosystem fairer to minnows?
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There are many initiatives, to help minnows. The witnesses take the lead here. It still seems like an uphill battle for most.
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Agree that for newbies, making meaningful comments that stimulate further discussions and thereby attract comment upvotes is the best way to start.
Votes are worth very little but still drain voting power. One solution is to use chainBB and their voting % slider, so newbies can still vote, especially to replies to their comments so that feels good without draining power that is needed in future.
In essence, newbies need other people's votes, not their own.
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The newbies are very important to generate content and stimulate discussion. They are a vital component.
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Interesting game theory. Which particular article (or articles) talk about how precisely all the algorithms work? Reputation, Vests, and Steem Power are interrelated but not directly correlated, yes? But I don't know exactly how.
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Have a read of Dans two posts that I have referenced. Very interesting reads.
Vests/Steem Power are like an option to convert for certain fixed amount of Steem.
Reputation isn't directly related to steem power. You can't "buy" reputation but rather its something that you get from participating in the platform.
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Does it reduce the impact of your upvotes?
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Just read them. They're fine articles, but I guess what I'm still uncertain of is: is Steem Power the only factor that goes into the impact of an upvote? Also, I guess, what are the algorithms that dictate trending and hot?
Not that I know how to make content that uses those factors. I write fiction, mainly, but I'm curious. I like understanding games, and I feel like I don't exactly know the rules. I though reputation was what made a whale, but it's not, is it?
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The amount of Steem power you hold and Voting Power are the variables that determine how much your vote is worth since HF19. i.e. Voting power means the more you vote in a day the less your votes are worth until your voting power recharges.
Your vote will also be impacted by how many votes have been cast in the day by other voters on other posts and how much the price of Steem is.
According to Steemit FAQ
So hot posts are posts that are getting the most upvotes or comments, trending posts seem to be the same but stake weighted.
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Got it. And reputation is how much other reputable users have upvoted you ever.
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