There's a war underway on Steemit
There are no sides to take... we need to band together as a community.
There must be something to resolve the issues...
Please leave any feedback, productive and/or creative responses in the comments section below... Let me know what you think and if you feel the same, or not.
Till next time... Adios Amigos
There is no civil war. This is a false narrative. All material will be present on Steemit eventually....the more extreme, the greater the reaction from the community and the less visible, less rewarding and more damaging to reputation it will be. Disagreements are rather common...even if there is a 50/50 split through the entire community, so what? There will be some who flag, mute, ignore and some who upvote, follow, reward....that's the way it works. The issue currently is where all the whales act in concert one way or the other....this will become less of an issue as stake becomes held by more, diverse accounts.
There is a pattern of massive and grotesque peadophilia coverups in elite societies around the world. Putting your head in the sand fails the victims and the children of the future. It's ugly and many don't like to think about or see anything ugly....that's part of the reason why the perpetrators get away with it. Hopefully, over time, the quality of information presented on Steemit will improve which will perhaps improve the likelihood of a greater level of consensus forming more frequently.
Merry Christmas
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Watch the whole video .. ;)
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I did ;)
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you said "all the whales act in concert"
The common problem I see is a rogue whale not in sync with anybody
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Replying to this one as we ran out of room! ;) Glad you got me bud! Thanks for bothering to, I appreciate it very much.
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replying here due to nesting:
I don't think a majority of steemians have a problem with downvoting. maybe im wrong. I think most steemians were fine with downvoting content they thought was over-valued.
Even after they changed the downvote to a flag, people still continued to use it. The "makeup" post had like 20 flags, IIRC.
So they put progressively more severe warnings and restrictions on it (originally, there was no message. Then the message said "this could effect payout and visibility are you sure", now our current one)
Downvoting didnt stop until onceuponatime made that post threatening reprisals to anyone who who used their downvote. And it was referenced by nearly every author who regularly made trending at the time.
Personally, i prefer honest engagement. Positive, negative or middle-of-the-road. Im just throwing it out there, but maybe we can all interact and express out honest opinions (positive or negative) without the filter of what the UI deems to be inappropriate negativity.
VOting is about expressing how you think a post should be rewarded.
I think most steemians would agree that the disparity in post payout is a big problem. Downvoting over-rewarded posts is far and away the most effective way of addressing that disparity. Stigmatizing it by calling it a flag is counterproductive, IMO
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I appreciate the sentiment around valuing honest engagement, I value that too. I think we agree on the outcome, just not the best way to get there :) Now that post rewards can be throttled, the rewards without flags will reflect how the community values the post...assuming bot voting is deployed accurately....from a positive standpoint. (If someone rewards a post early, they have to assume others might reward the post and that the value will increase. If it exceeds what they think is reasonable, they could change their vote.) I don't think it should be for people that don't value a post to attack the reward just because they don't value it....just produce more quality posts that you do like or reward posts that you like (increasing your influence might be a good idea too.) All of that creates positive engagement without the need for a battle and the bad feeling that comes from differing opinions. The flag, as contentious as it is....if used purely for plagiarism and the like....could then work effectively. The consensus around how best to use the present functionality is forming...I honestly believe that downvoting will lead to a lot of bad feeling and far more friction in the end.
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Indeed, if all the whales acted in concert in a manner perceived as destructive....like 'inappropriate' flagging, then we'd have a hell of a problem. The point is the only way you can push back against a 'rogue' whale is to have other whales, or everyone else counteract the 'rogue.' The issue we have is that there is a wide interpretation for how to use flags. Yes there is a cultural guidance that is forming but why does someone with the influence Bernie has have to observe the interpretation of others? In fact, to him, he probably thinks he's using the flag appropriately anyway. So we come full circle, push back within the rules....easily done, though a bit of an overhead...and stop worrying, arguing or agonising about it. The view from outside steemit is made much more foggy with all the post and comment time the back and forth gets...rather than clearly explaining the rules and the contingencies available. I hope that makes sense! Sounded good in my head anyway ;)
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I think I got what your saying.. lol. I pointed out in the video a downvote he made not only to a post but also, @dantheman.
Now considering the fact that I don't have the power or money to make a difference in this situation... I felt it was necessary to point out and speak up for others who have fell victim or are too nervous to stand up to trigger happy power players by making this video and reminding the community.
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there is no cultural guidence. All the other whales downvote material they think is overvalued or overexposed. Smooth has done it (and said so explicitly) ned has done it (remember mr yoda) dan has done it and so have most of the other small whales. Like you said, this is because there is no one who can make them follow the informal "rules".
There are two ways to look at a downvote:
As a flag, that is only to be used in a specific set of circumstnaces.
As a vote that you can use however you see fit.
The thing is, that if our "cultural norm" says we use downvotes as #1, whales absolutely can, and absolutely will ignore the informal rule just as they do right now. So the only way we can have a universal rule that applies to everyone(at least within the way the current system works) is to use votes as votes, the way they are on the blockchain.
The real issue here is that a bunch of not very good, very overpaid writers got together, complained that they didnt want to get downvoted, so the downvote got turned to a flag and got a warning in the UI.
When that didn't work, the the same group of writers threatened to retaliate against anyone who used the downvote in a way they didnt approve of, so people stopped using it.
Thats not a "community standard" thats trying to force people to vote the way you want. Changing the way the vote looks in the UI to discourage people from voting a certain way is no different from ballot tampering.
And steemit as a whole loses out because of it.
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In reply to @sigmajin - with respect, I'm not talking about a cultural norm forming out of the actions of whales, I'm talking about the one forming around how the majority of Steemians would like the flags to be used. For some individuals that may shift around a bit as time goes by because the flags can be deployed whenever someone wants to deploy them.
I don't know anything about your assertions regarding writers.I thought the downvote was changed to a flag in the hope that people would not engage for negative reasons. Is there any need to let someone know you don't like their post? The flags have been used to control rewards, to punish posts or comments, to discourage material, to show dislike, to indicate plagiarism etc That's a pretty broad brush open to broad interpretation.
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thanks
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that prolly sounded a bit too butt hurt.. my apologies.. but my message is trying to point out some issues that are beyond the community having the obvious difference of opinion.
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I think I got the video and it was entertaining. I was offering my perspective and obviously it's a general one that I think relates to any issue around disagreements on content and our reactions to it. Wether you agree or disagree with bernie's choices....he's entitled to make them. If that becomes a problem, there are ways to counteract his influence entirely within the rules. I meant no offence and I appreciate how upsetting differences of opinion about content and flagging can be. I just hope a degree of pragmatism can help...certainly at this stage. Though I appreciate just how painful a whale flag can be, especially if an account is working hard and yet to gather in much SP.
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no offense although I will admit I originally responded in a defensive impusle..
From what I see and what it looks like.. there has been no actions taken to counter act or help resolve that particular problem.
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did you even watch the video? I have a feeling you got the wrong message out of the video.. if you did watch it
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In all things, at the very least .. remain rational. Pizzagate was total fucking bullshit and anyone with a fully-functioning brain in their head knows it - let crazy be crazy, and by doing so, minimize the harm they can do. .. because someone always gets bloody when you try to stop them.
Mr. Wang's excellent video is a wake up call ... we are in a war against massive opponents, we should not come at them divided .. and we should be as sober as sober can be when we do.
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LOL, the video shows what the "flag" war looks like from the end-user point of view vs. the whales.
Personally I am not a fan of flags, when I see a problem with something I tag @steemcleaners and let them deal with it.
My Steemy mood has been low over the last few days, as the flagging and personal attacks have gone on.
Everyone has an opinion on what we can't have on the trending page.... PG, memes or Porn or SteemSports/gambling, or fakenews, or TDV, or etc. Freedom and Diversity do not seem to be the goal. Yet, the business plan talks about going mainstream.
Not going to happen if the community keeps attacking success.
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agreed
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@whatsup not going to happen if the management act like reddit's did. a lot of us will leave if they don't put the pizzagate topic back!
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That's me during all this mess. Teach people whatever you may, but everything will still reamain the same. I don't think that it is so tragic to steemit as a platform as someone might think it is. A week will pass, this will die-out on its own, and everyone will live as if it never even happened. So enjoy this funny mess until it exists. You might miss it someday, when something more serious will be happening. #firstworldproblems
Yup, we be living just a little to good if this is happening lol
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what are you referring to exactly?
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To all this exaggerated situation , which only occured, because people are having too much free time. It is all about two different sides tilting at the same windmill, thinking that they know how to defeat it.
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I didn't exaggerate anything... I'm pointing out the issues that are blown out of proportion... if thats what you mean.
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No, I am not talking about you. I like your post. I am mostly talking about people who are causing those issues :)
I am on neither side (though, pizzagates seems pretty childish to me), so it kind of looks pointless to me. Waste of time, which could be used to make something valuable. But that's just me.
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ahh, yea.. i gotcha.. same here
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unfortunately most of my interactions with the pizzagaters on steemit have been negative experiences. Many of them have brought their noxious troll attitude across from 4chan and we don't need that. I got flagged 15 times in a couple of minutes simply because i asked them to back up one of their ludicrous claims. Steemit is a great community, Lets not let it get ruined. Merry Christmas. Peace
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source
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I do my best to stick to positive interactions. I like to read a lot of articles I may disagree with, but trying to sway certain viewpoints is at times a fool's errand. Several times I've found myself typing a reply, only to end up deleting it instead and reaching for the mute button.
Perhaps I'm building my own little echo chamber, but I like it! I build up the tags that interest me and leave others to do the same. As new communities emerge and the user base grows, fighting may not subside, but it will be less noticeable. I'm certainly not reading all the content on Steemit, but enough to feel the pulse of the community. A user can hit the "new" tab and realistically cruise through the last few hours of all content posted to Steemit. Try that on Reddit or Facebook! Point is, it's still a small world here so the effects are magnified.
To help in the short term, I've heard brainstorming in the past about a "block" feature and I think this should be the next big implementation now that we have a "nsfw" tag filter. A user should be able to block another from viewing their posts & comments. This would of course be only on the site front end, not at the blockchain level. If someone goes out of their way they could still attack a person or tag, but most often people are only attacking what is in front of them. When flag wars start, if one party is unwilling to mute and go their separate way, a block could save some brawling.
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awesome comment and input... thanks for sharing.
I think your idea might be a good one... honestly the big annoying elephant in the room right now is #pizzagate and for the most part, a lot of us are tired of seeing it. I agree with berniesanders on that point... now I suggested just get rid of the entire tag together... do away with it... it's inconsistent garbage or exaggerated facts... but maybe we just need to block bernie from seeing what we don't want him to see and it would be convenient to both of us, if that were an option.
not cut and dry.. but an idea to consider and build on.
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Thanks. Honestly there has been flak directed at Pizzagate, Steemsports, NSFW, and even anarchy & crypto. Any one of these dominating the front page can deter new sign ups. We're seeing new groups arrive and be active, Pizzagate is one of the latest and can be divisive, but shouldn't be singled out in the conversation. Diversification and growth of the user base are critical.
I also hope there are plans to begin organizing content more. Improving the tag system and mimicking a subReddit style structure as well as enabling creation of user groups would be great. People may look at the Steemit front page and be turned away by the content in present conditions. It would be much better if we could direct a friend or acquaintance to the front page of the community relevant to them on Steemit. I'm sure that many who have joined a site like Reddit did not do so for the site as a whole. They discovered a writers workshop, a photography club, or an online support group that compelled them to join and become active.
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very true... I can honestly say I may have focused a bit too much on pizzagate when there are several other trending topics dominating the same way.
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I disagree with berniesanders quite a bit, but I'm not surprised neither am I sad to see him flag something being mislabeled as "evidence".
Sorry for anyone that may have suffered injustly (see rules for flagging) from his flags though. That's different.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circumstantial_evidence
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All the same, it was still not "evidence" (in other words for anything of importance, in this case something obviously criminal) in my opinion. If you can prove any interesting fact through evidence, then I'm interested.
-This is not a call for anyone to spam me a long wall of text.
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One of the biggest points of steemit is that it can't be censored. For that reason #pizzagate and the related #fakenews censorship on other sites can be one of the best things that ever happens to steemit. IDK why @berniesanders has such a problem with people speaking their minds and sharing their research on this platform but the whole deal on flagging posts will probably end up biting him in the ass in the end as more people come here looking for a censorship-free platform to share their research. We need some orcas up in here to eat whales that want to shoot themselves in the foot.
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well said @jphenderson - many of us came here ONLY for pizzagate. Remove that and steemit won't see us for dust!
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But what do I know, I'm just a walrus... Coo Coo Kachoo
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Yes, hopefully we can get this resolved soon.. i created this video to encourage steemit to band together and become a positive example
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Some of us are working on ways that this can't be as big of a problem but I don't want to say too much until we have more together... I'll let you know when we unveil our project.
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Hahaha, that vid cracked me up when the hulk(bernie) was slammin lokie(fyrst) around. Pretty accurate way to portray it. I definitely agree with your sentiment. Well said.
Just curious.. I saw @berniesanders flagged @fyrstikken's comments on @dantheman's post, but did he also argue with fyrst about pizzagate? If so, I missed that! I've seen him flag a bunch of stuff, but my post was the first I saw him go against the pizzagate stuff.
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it's not just about fyrstikken and berniesanders.. it's about the entire platform of steemit and how everyone is being divided. Fyrst was meant to be Thor where as Loki is all of us on steemit
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Don't assume that this is dividing. It is a learning process we all go though. This is completely normal and expected in my view. Experienced authors bringing on investigations of this nature are expecting things like this to come up. They should know how to deal with it in a way that brings people together (when they are ready).
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ah ok. That makes sense.
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Chuckle. I'm kiind of sick of pizza too. On the gate or anywhere really.
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lol, ikr
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the a civil war is the whole "its a flag for abuse vs its a down vote".
many of the whales say it is a downvote and to be used for subjective reasons. so as of the whales people can flag you for anything. I personally find offence in the letter "r" and feel your post is abusing me and the fact that I have to respond and use the letter "r" is worse.
Please stop with the abuse or you are asking for flags under the tos of steemit according to @smooth and @dantheman
xD
I wish it was a joke but they seriously said it is to be used for subjective reasons because what we find offencive or abusive is subjective.
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So many "r"s man... Did you have to use so many.... I'm offended AF
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I don't blame u, that person made me comment back. but that name, omg, im enkindled
xD
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this is so hilarious but accurate at the same time because it has nearly gotten that ridiculous at times
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Its scary true.
lol
The incoming flag war is coming.
:D
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A explanation for flagging a post should be mandatory, no explanation no flag
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Well done @mrwang. Resteemed.
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As I recall the Steemit White Paper has a section dealing with the likely development of this kind of behaviour, and the fact that over time the voting value structure will work to correct troll or sybil activity. The Steemit White Paper is certainly one of the best overviews of the problems that have developed in social networking, and impressed me with its insight into how economic self-interest will motivate users to consider carefully the quality of posted material.
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