I understand your argument. My willingness to love my savior is my willingness. I am not being forced to love him. I do it out of free will. There can be no free will if we have no choice.
So if we lived in a world that was with out harm to us we would accept our roles but we would not love the maker. We would go along with our everyday task and all would be wonderful.
God desires our love for him. It can't be a forced love. It has to be a free willing love that accepts his gift to us. God never forces himself on us but instead allows us to see his greatness and desire him the way he desires us.
RE: "For God so loved the world" This one phrase should change our mind about God.
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"For God so loved the world" This one phrase should change our mind about God.
"There can be no free will if there is no choice"
You're ignoring what I said and forcing the conversation into absurd parameters. I agree free will is not a possibility in a universe that precludes the potential for choice. But it does not logically follow that free will can only exist in a universe where ALL possible choices are available, nor in one which includes terrible outcomes. One does not need to be at pain of incredible hardship to have a choice. If you disagree, then you disagree with every parent who has ever lived and carefully curated their childrens' environment to include choices that are appropriate for their level of intellectual development and those which allow for failure for the good of child, but not catastrophic failure that leads to severe harm.
I agree, God does not force himself on us. In fact, it's very damning that Christian apologetics for the fact that incredible suffering exists in a universe where there is supposedly a loving, all powerful and all knowing steward, are academically similar to the scenario in which there is no god, or that there is a god but he doesn't particularly give a shit about what's going on.
This is not love. This is neglectful parenting. I do not need to teach my child about the dangers of the world by letting the little fool jam a fork into the light socket. No all knowing, all powerful being who loves us needs to subject us to tornadoes, nor genetically inherited sin conditions which, if left untreated, cause eternal damnation to prove philosophical points, nor to give us the opportunity to love him.
And yet here we are. We certainly ARE subjected to severe weather and, if your bible is to be believed, have in fact inherited sin conditions which will assure our consumption in eternal hellfire if we don't follow teachings poorly stewarded from manipulation in a book written mostly by people who didn't know what electricity is and sheep herders. The extraordinarily poor recording of the most important information ever given to mankind, alone, is demonstration enough that god really doesn't think very much of you.
The god of your bible is a sociopath.
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I have three kids and I know this much. My kids would hate me if I dictated their every move. They would resent me and rebel. But if I explain all consequences of each choice, then I have given them the knowledge they need to make choices. Can I still push them they way I want yes. But their love for me will be pure if I allow it to grow from them and not me pushing it on them.
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Yet again, you are ignoring the points made. I understand a child needs freedom. But I know for a fact that you do not give them freedom beyond their ability to handle. If that were not so, they would be child protective services' children, and not yours. You will not allow your children to do heroin because "If I limit them their love for me wont be pure." That is an emotional appeal to nonsense.
Are you going to acknowledge and discuss the points made or does your argument depend on you closing your eyes? Can your claim not stand up to the smallest scrutiny? I am no genius. If it cannot stand up to me it has no hope of standing up to my betters.
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I acknowledge your points and they are valid. But do acknowledged there is an evil force warring with the God of the universe. The evil of this world being lead be a demonic force and that force is causing the pain and misery of this world. I opened up in my blog by saying this world is harsh and it hates all of us. The world hates us because of the demonic forces ruling it. God gave us a way out of the misery. But to end the misery would mean to end the whole world. God does not want that. He desires that all come to him for their salvation and that non should perish. The world is out to destroy the inhabitants, not God.
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"Acknowledge there is an evil force warring with god"
Demonstrate it exists. Consideration is not due without proof, and incredible claims require commensurate evidence.
And even if you do it does not back up your initial point. In fact it would back MINE up. No evil force can war with an all powerful, all knowing being BUT with that being's permission. And we have already established that one does not need to subject a child to incredible danger in order to give them the ability to make choices and love us as parents.
If such an evil force exists, it is god's fault for not precluding its existence in the first place. Yet again, your god is in a reactionary position. And that's awful suspicious.
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So now for a question. Is your hope only in this life time. We live our 70 or so years and that is it. Explain to me why get up if that is all we have.
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I asked a question first. If you desire answers to your questions it would be polite to provide answers to mine. Thus I reiterate: Demonstrate your proposed evil force exists and that it is warring with a god who permitted that evil force to exist in the first place when he did not have to.
I don't know if there are other lifetimes or not. No one has ever presented falsifiable evidence to me that such lives exist beyond impotent personal testimony from ancient books written by people who didn't even know basic maths. Perhaps they passed for intelligent in their time, but in this time that's called illiteracy and I have no ethical imperative to accept the rambling of illiterates who have not made the effort to demonstrate a basic level of personal intellectual competence.
Your question suggests an appeal to extremes. There is no requirement for gods or afterlifes to have hope in an uncaring universe. That is called nihilism and it's what petulant rebellious teenagers do to piss off mom and dad.
To answer your question bluntly, I am what I do. Nothing more. Nothing less. I am not my intentions. I am not my beliefs. Un-acted upon, intentions are valueless no matter how "nice" they may be. Chance plays a bigger role in everything than most people are comfortable with, even to the point many refuse to acknowledge it's even a thing because the philosophical and practical implications are discouraging. Never the less, the hope in my day, at least the amount of it I can realistically bank upon without having to rely on sickly lotteries, is entirely a product of the behaviors of myself and other people. "All we are" can be an awful lot if you are putting the right amount of effort in the right places.
There was once a man who was tired of being a patent clerk and decided to figure out what light was. In the process of trying to understand this phenomenon he discovered something about the nature of the universe and figured out how to express that discovery mathematically to such an exacting degree of accuracy that it made predictions that turned out to be true. In fact, were it not for this man's discovery that time is relative to motion, the orbiting satellites which have made it possible for you and me to have this debate would not exist! It would not be possible to get the timing of the signals bounced off of it if you did not understand that time is different for the satellite than it is for you and me solely because it is moving at such a remarkable speed.
Thank god? No. Thank Einstein. He was a genius in the truest sense of the word, a real life mutant who's cognitive tools were well better than probably any of ours could ever hope to be. But none of that would have mattered had Einstein not been unsatisfied with his lot in the office and had he not made an attempt at something. He isn't great because of what he was born with. The story of the genius who never tried is as common as sand. He is great because of what he did.
And like him, I will only be what I do. Therefore I'd damn well better do well. There is profound purpose in what I chose to set my hands and mind to, even though I'll almost certainly never impact the world the way Einstein did. I will impact my children MORE than he. I will impact those who love me more than he.
There is incredible potential in every day entirely divorced from the existence, or non existence, of any deity or after life. Those things impact the urgency of life only, not the nature of it. If you have no hope without the existence of a god and without the existence of inherent, built-in purpose, then that was your choice, and your choice alone.
The good news about that is today is a new day and you are free to make better choices if you wish.
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So you have no desire to see your children after death. If I'm right about God and he does have a wonderful place for us you don't care. You would rather let your children be lost to nothing then accept there is a chance of something.
On to the illiteracy point. The book of Daniel has some of the most precise math worked out that most modern day scholars don't want people to read it. Because if they did they would never accept the bogus teachings of our time.
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