Curation tips

in curation •  5 years ago  (edited)

After a few discussions lately and with some devs that are planning on optimizing their bots and starting curation projects for HF21 (yey) it seemed as if they were not aware of one important function with voting power which came as a surprise to me. Without naming the names of the devs and witnesses as they should be aware but somehow weren't, I'm making this post in case there are many others out there also that do not know about this. I will add some other curation functions about the penalty which will be changed to 5mins after just in case some have a hard time understanding it. Be aware though that I am not the most technical person but have a good approximate understanding of how things work, for a more detailed approach I recommend checking out the posts about curation from @jga, but if you are afraid of numbers then rather read here.

Alright so, you recently took the opportunity to buy Steem at the low prices and are a dolphin or an orca and want to maximize your curation rewards without delegating to bid bots cause you don't want to stoop that low, good for you! What you need to know is how voting power works, how you can maximize it and how it is affected.

The one thing that surprised me many did not know about was how much voting power the votes burn/spend.

Say you are at 100% voting power. This is the max, your 100% upvote will now give out the max possible rewards. If you are an author and want to give yourself the biggest possible rewards, you'll want to be at 100% voting power when casting the 100% upvote, but remember that staying at 100% for longer is wasting rewards, as any vote to avoid staying at 100% will get you some rewards (unless the post gets downvoted or has declined payouts).

Votes are given out in rshares, what you are doing with your votes is basically telling the blockchain how big of a part of the rewardpool you want to allocate to this post, and you can do this as many times per day you want with the voting power recharge in mind. It takes 24 hours to recharge 20% voting power, so if you were to throw 10 quick 100% upvotes you'd think it would take you to 80% voting power exactly and you'd have to wait 24 hours to do this again... well that's where you'll be wrong.

This is now the part that a surprising amount of people did not know. At 100% voting power your 100% upvote will burn exactly 2% voting power. You will have 98% voting power right after casting that 100% upvote, but, your next 100% upvote will not give out a full "100%" upvote as you are not at 100% voting power anymore, meaning it will also not burn a full 2% voting power. For comparison, being at 80% voting power, your 100% upvote will only allocate 80% of rshares from the rewardpool as you can't upvote more than 100%. This means that your 100% upvote is basically only a 80% upvote and will only burn 4/5th of 2% voting power.

Are you still with me? :P

Here are some more examples:

At 50% voting power your 100% upvote will spend 1% voting power taking you down to 49% vp while giving out 50% rshares to a post.

At 10% voting power your 100% upvote will spend 0.2% voting power taking you down to 9.8% vp.

This basically means that when you see someone vote you with a 100% upvote, you'll also need to know what his voting power was, for those of you doing the vote4vote thing you may get tricked by others casting more 100% votes daily on people hoping for a 100% vote back while they are at very low voting power and you aren't. :P

For OCDB recently we decided to remove the queue and allow people to get their votes instantly instead. Some asked me if that's a bad idea cause it will give out smaller votes to people but that is not the case as it is still giving out the same amount of rshares as it was previously, the upvotes are just a higher % now while they burn less voting power per vote. The way we have it set up now is that we have to overview the demand, if too much demand starts happening we will lower the max bid as the max bid cannot get close to a 100% upvote as going over that is not possible which means that user would lose out on rshares in that case, and when demand is low the voting power will increase and at the same time we will increase the max bid so they can receive bigger votes. Like I mentioned above, being at 100% voting power and giving out a 100% upvote is only great if you as a curator know for sure that this one post you will be voting on will give the best returns this day so you want your vote to be as big as possible or in the case of self-voting where you want to allocate max rewards to your own post.

Now the reason I mentioned "in case you have become a dolphin now and want to focus on curation" is that everything works in percentages on the chain. A 1k SP account can earn the same rewards as an account with 100k SP percentually (is that a word?). So how can you maximize your curation rewards for your own stake? Well, timing and the right posts are everything. Without getting too much into how the new curve will affect this as it will still remain to be seen, we do know how it has affected it in the past somewhat.

Here is an example of your curation return efficiency:

image.png

As you can see I voted 100% on this post with about 90-95% voting power, but I remember it was already at about 25-30$ in rewards when I cast my vote, thus the approximate returns in SP will be 5.134 (this is still in 75/25 just for your information and will change with the new hardfork)

In comparison to that, a post I had vote on a bit earlier when the rewards were lower and then it received more rewards after my vote is returning this:

image.png

Yes, that's an 80% increase just because I voted it at a better time.

So what you need to know to receive really good curation rewards is that the lower the votes on a post are and the higher you think they will be by the time it pays out, the more rewards that post will give you for your vote. There was a time in 2016 during n^2 but 40x instead of 10x daily votes where I curated a post at 30mins that was close to $0.01 in rewards with about 2k SP and it ended up paying out over $15k and returned over 20 SP to me, yup, that one post gave me 1% of my SP in 1 of 40 daily votes. Of course they are rare but with HF21 we are hoping that people will attempt to find these gems that are unvoted from newcomers even more and with resteems, communities and your own vote help them get more visibility which at the same time may get them more votes and increase your curation rewards.

This is also why delegating to curation projects that return curation rewards and use them on newcomers and other quality posters that may get more rewards after their vote might be even more profitable than delegating to bid bots shortly after HF21 or more over time as downvotes are used more often on bid bots that don't place better restrictions on who they sell their votes to.

Lastly, the curation penalty. What you need to know about this is basically that there is a penalty in place which is mostly there to fight off bots that would just vote instantly on any post and get those big returns from gems like the example above. The penalty works in this way that if you vote on a post too early, say after 3 seconds (or right the next block) then 99.6633% of your potential curation rewards will go back to the rewards pool. The new penalty end at 5 minutes compared to the current 15 minutes. It goes down gradually over time, about 0.3366% every 3 seconds, at 150 seconds (2.5 minutes/150 blocks) it will be at 50%. The kicker here is that some times it is worth to vote before the penalty is close to or gone completely as there may be other curators, autovoters or bots waiting to vote on that same post, you on the other hand have the advantage of doing it manually and judging/predicting how well it will do in the future.

I'm gonna end it here as this post is getting pretty long, but if you have any questions in mind that came up after reading this I will try and answer them based on my non-technical mind however well I can.

Thanks for reading and happy curating in HF21!!

PS! Remember that posts posted now will already be 50/50 as they are being paid out after the Hardfork takes place, but, the penalty change will go into effect first after the hardfork so don't start voting at 5 minutes just yet. ;) (unless you really want to)


Image shamelessly stolen from @sndbox's post from 2 years ago that I found on google

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I'll be happy when my 100% vote will be worth at least $0.01

you know what annoys me somedays (sorry I'm going to rant here) Now and again a post of mine will see many votes but there all super small, like half of a percent and there are 50-100 of these mico votes. (usually dose not effect the payout at all) whats the point of that? I'm sure there is a reason that has to do with profits but I would also think there would be a better way then that.

and let me get this strait. It is best to wait at least five minutes after a post is published to vote it or the entire payout goes to the author?

Those microvotes intermittently on your posts are probably from a curation trail. A human is voting your post a certain percentage, and the followers of the trail will automatically vote a percentage of that percentage. So if the leader of the trail votes 5%, and my max vote on the trail is 7% and I am voting proportionately to the trail itself, my vote will be sub 1%.

Assuming the total votes on your post meets the threshold for payout, I don't see any reason to be annoyed. Those sub 1 percent votes do add up. You just have to keep in mind that it's probably one person voting your post, along with a 100 tiny auto votes to back them up. I periodically go through some of the stuff I've auto voted and bump up my vote, so I'd say you are still getting some degree of exposure by being discovered by a trail

Thanks for explaining, I understand it better now.

The payout doesn't go to the author anymore, it is returned to the pool now since HF19 or 20. But it moves down gradually like I said, at 5 minutes you get your max potential curation rewards (no penalty), but sometimes it might be worth to vote at 4.5mins or earlier if you think someone else will vote before 5mins too.

If your vote are too small, i.e. they won't even get you a potential CR of 0.001 then that is lost as that is the threshold, so for small accounts it's better to vote a safe 100% vote on posts you think will do well then spread them out too thin.

Thanks for helping me understand this better.

And that's where curators need to do a bit more work and seek out quality authors with potential instead of just upvoting posts that have the highest payout. Thanks
Btw, which site did thosr two screencap come from?

It is better to do it manually right?
A tedious task, but a better game play.

Posted using Partiko iOS

If you want to vote on new members yeah, doing it auto means someone will keep front-running out or other bigger accounts over time if always on the same authors. It's a race to the bottom where at some point it won't be worth to vote "too early" either no matter how many others are voting after yours, so you switch to other accounts.

Manually is best though as autovotes have way more side-effects on the author and posting quality over time, etc.

Well, kinda tricky hah, well i am sure you and many others will post after hf how really this works. 🤞🏼

Posted using Partiko iOS

First it was said that the penalty was 1 minute, change 5 minutes.

pd: I want to know more about that exponential curve that becomes linear.

You're not the only one, let's wait and see how it is in practice. :D

Yes, the theory was explained but many people were left with too many doubts. Practice will tell everything!

This means that your 100% upvote is basically only a 80% upvote and will only burn 1/5th of 2% voting power.

Is this correct?

  ·  5 years ago (edited)

Edited, thanks!

it was a copy of part of your post and he is "right", it should be 4/5th, not 1/5th

Posted using Partiko Android

Oh, my bad it didn't click at all, you're both right.

Hey @acidyo it is a good explanation clearing many doubt. Still only 2 days to go I have one doubt left...does more voting value earns us more curation, and is it better to keep more open SP in our wallet rather than investing in other curation projects?

Posted using Partiko Android

Finally a decent post about voting and how it affects rewards, will be interesting to see this in practice

Have a good day from NZ

Posted using Partiko iOS

Hold on, Devs and Witnesses not even knowing how the vote system works?
Frightening, but okay...
Thank you for the explanation :)

Haha nah just a couple that were not aware of how much voting power is spent depending on the vp you cast your votes on.

;)

Howdy dearest friend @acidyo.

What an amazing post!
You have really opened my eyes to a new dimension with your clear explanations about voting and healing.

Honestly, I will have to read this valuable article several times. Thanks for sharing.

Your friend, Juan.

Absolutely perfect!! I haven't been able to get my head around the HF changes and this is EXACTLY what I was looking for!! Thank you very much!

One important point to add is that many people think (me too before) that the only way to vote optimally is waiting the VP to recharge at 100%.

This is not true, you can vote at 60% and be optimal as well, because what matters here is the number of rshares. No matter how you consume them, the recharge speed is the same in all cases.

I'm so close to dolphin I can almost taste it and I think im hitting it at the right time, so glad I've been commited to powering up all the time, really keen to see how the new curation rewards start to pan out, its desperately needed.

This post has been included in the latest edition of The Steem News - a compilation of the key news stories on the Steem blockchain.

Interesting that some witnesses don't know how the VP system works lol. Lets keep their names secret forever tho... xD

It's 5 minutes? I thought it was 1 minute now.

Posted using Partiko Android

My recollection is that it was 30 minutes that 100% went to author and zero to curators. Then got changed to 15 mins. that it goes back to rewards pool and after that it goes 75% to author 25% to curators last HF. (In both cases it scales downward towards that limit, so that at 15 mins. the effect should currently be gone.) Glad to hear it is now going down to 5 mins. only that rewards go back to reward pool. The 50-50 change I'm not so happy about, but open to seeing.

Thanks for highlighting here how the effects of the initial time period diminish until the time is up. I don't keep that in mind often enough.

So the “new post” tab will be a active section 😄 for looking fir recent posts.

Posted using Partiko iOS

After some consideration it was set to 5 (now being in 2 days after the HF goes in).

In short, should the vote be adjusted to 5 minutes of publication?

You should.
I already done that.

Posted using Partiko iOS

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What is the difference of the 5 minute from the 15 minute voting window penalty? I think the answer is nothing.

3x less age. :D

Is steem is just for curation reward? What if a person wanted /just enjoy the blogging and mess on like or comments yet wanted to be part of rewards .Is the community or the real purpose of this is becoming a curator to had the best article result for a specific topic to become a highlight on answer on web ? . voting is somehow becoming like a crypto currency mining that somehow you must read analyze and vote and the bots are used as auto votes and becoming it more less community. due yeah its all about rewards but it is somehow less fun . or i just mess up and lost on the map i somehow moved on a very complicated and competitive blogging site.

Posted using Partiko Android

The STEEM blockchain was built from scratch to reward for curating and creating content to curate.

This blockchain is not like a BTC blockchain.

Welcome to STEEM.

cool. i guess i mess up ... and i somehow mess on my blog channel . i just discovered you cant rewrite and update the post after a months .

Posted using Partiko Android

That's because you're not using the best front-end ever for Steeming.. https:steempeak.com allows you to edit old posts as well as a multitude of other awesome features you might not find anywhere else!

  ·  5 years ago (edited)

thanks for information. it is the best discovery I discover on steem blogging

It was a clear post! No doubt about it. But wouldn't it be easier to have explained that each 100% upvote will decrease the current VP% with 2%?
So starting at 100%, the first 100% upvote will remove 2% of the current VP, so 100 - 2 = 98.
The next 100% upvote will again decrease the current VP with 2%. So 2% of 98 is 1.96, so the new VP will be 98 - 1.96 = 96.04.
The next 100% will again use decrease the VP with 2%, so 2% of 96.04 is 1.92. So after this upvote the new VP will be 96.04 - 1.9208 = 4.11%.

Just an idea to use next time!

See you on the other side!

Cheers,
Peter

No, because they were explaining why it's exactly not the way you're explaining..

You will have 98% voting power right after casting that 100% upvote, but, your next 100% upvote will not give out a full "100%" upvote as you are not at 100% voting power anymore, meaning it will also not burn a full 2% voting power.

being at 80% voting power, your 100% upvote will only allocate 80% of rshares from the rewardpool as you can't upvote more than 100%. This means that your 100% upvote is basically only a 80% upvote and will only burn 4/5th of 2% voting power.

You are right that the upvote will only be an 80% upvote. But people do think with their slider and in my opinion it made more sense to write down the next 100% upvote. But I can life with your explanation :)

Cheers,
Peter

Bookmarked this post and thank you!
Blessings!

Hi dear @acidyo.

This is a lot of valuable information that you present to us in your post.

In particular I have experimented with my power votes before this HF, changing the percentage or weight of my vote as well as the voting times.

Something that I must highlight is the fact that My vote in favor could bring 1.7 SP in the form of rewards. Now it's just 1.04SP. Voting comments no longer seems to make much sense. What do you think about this?

I will put into practice these tips that you are giving us.

Thanks for sharing.

All best, Piotr.

Auto voting to optimise returns is all very well, but it does not really take account of post quality. Whether the cutoff is 5 minutes or 15 is irrelevant unless you are on here 24/7 to catch new posts at the right time. An issue with strategic voting is that it can mean the same people keep getting the good rewards as they have good history, i.e. self-perpetuating benefits. I know good curation projects have people looking out for quality content. I will keep most of my voting manual and accept that my rewards will not be optimal. I do some auto-voting on some small accounts to try and build them up. I have the @tenkminnows account working on this and may tweak when it votes to help it build up more SP. I know it gets a better curation return than my own account.

I have never been into buying votes apart from a few experiments. I would hope that the free downvotes will be used to balance out rewards a bit better.The reward curve that is expected to give lower rewards to most people is putting people off. It still needs to be about quality though.

Cheers