RE: Hardfork 21 is HAPPENING. What will change?

You are viewing a single comment's thread from:

Hardfork 21 is HAPPENING. What will change?

in hf21 •  5 years ago 

This terrifies me.

It shouldn't. :-)

(btw, I would recommend reading @timcliff's Open Letter to all Steemians - Hardfork 21: Culture Change)

I'm sorry for a relatively short reply, it's way beyond my abilities to respond properly to such long comment on a Friday's late evening. ;-)

Hard work and good content does not mean a post will be worth anything.

True.
But for original, high quality content there's a better chance to lure voters because it increase probability that ... it will lure even more voters.
Steem never promised people to pay for their hard work as if blogging were their full time job as successful professional writers.
Steem can pay something instead of nothing (see Facebook, Reddit, Instagram).
They are Steem users (Steem Power holders) who decide who gets paid more or less for their effort.
Think of Steem as decentralized publisher that splits their profit among all authors (well, that's exactly how it is), where authors are also members of the board.
Now we need to make sure that our Steem can generate profit and pay for good content.
HF21 is an attempt to solve some of issues that we have here.

Steemit introducing free flagging, and letting people take for free what others worked hard for is like a gut punch.

Downvoting is an integral part of a post value eSTEEMation.
Without free (relatively small) downvote pool, people had to sacrifice their potential rewards from upvoting in order to fight abuse.
Retaliation downvotes and downvotes from trolls & psychopaths would happen regardless of separate downvote pool.

They, for free, can take away the steem power it has taken so long for me to gather, in a single click.

No. Nobody can take away your Steem Power. All that downvote can do is affect your potential payout for post, and - in edge cases - reputation (if you was downvoted way below zero AND your reputation is lower than downvoter's)

IMHO using name "flag" for downvotes was a mistake. That created feeling that flag is something special.
It really isn't. In as same way as you are receiving random upvote from random user, you could receive random downvote from other random user who disagree with previous.

steemit are asking their users to police the platform for them, and shrugging off the responsibility for managing the platform onto their users.

Steemit is not Steem. Steemit is just part of it. Steem is our platform. Users. It's us who decide.

I am confident the bidbots will adapt

Agree. But they would have to adapt with behavior that's more in line with what's good for the platform.

Seriously, I need a survival guide, I don’t know how to continue to share content.

Don't worry, @timcliff's post mentioned above could serve that purpose :-)

a 50:50 split encourages curation at the top because you can earn so much more from it so it follows why waste curation on smaller users when you will get more back from upvoting someone big
quality is not reflected by post value at all

Not really. If all knows that alice produce original, high quality content, they can be lazy and vote for that instead of searching for more, but to really get good curation rewards they would have to vote earlier and earlier (before others that wants to do the same) that will make them enter 5-minute window and burn parts of their rewards, until it became more profitable to go and search for undiscovered content.

flagging with no singular guide for users isn't good for the platform

As you said, that's subjective, but there are some guidelines on what's a good or bad reason for downvote.

the average post doesn't come near 20 STEEM, only the top few percent will benefit, at the expense of everyone else

That's out of context, all will have reduced author rewards, above is just estimate where curve shape will start to have more/less impact
in the end it's for the sake of the whole platform

Posting is scary when you can lose everything you have built up with no warning just because someone didn't like your story, didn't like you personally, or doesn't think it is worth what it has compared to what their
own post got

HF21 doesn't change much here. Disagreement on rewards was always one of the examples of valid reasons for downvotes.

we shouldn't be turning on each other with flags

Stop treating them personal. Most of them are not, only a very, very, small portion of them are (and downvotes are really very, very rare in nature)

flagging other users shouldn't be explained as a way to earn more on your own posts

reducing the payout for the average user whilst increasing the cut for curation takes from the user base and feeds the top

Gives incentive to Steem Power holders to actually... hold the Steem Power and vote
Otherwise, who you'd expect to vote for posts?

Authors get paid when people like you upvote their post.
If you enjoyed what you read here, create your account today and start earning FREE STEEM!
Sort Order:  

$0.37 your comment (post) here is worth and that is what 1-2 steem lol and you think that they are wrong? Your post value is going to plummet if you don't have friends who are insiders/whales in steem after this! This is reverse robin hood! Steal from the poor to give more to the rich! I wrote about this the past year ever since HF20 destroyed the platform. Funny most of the big players have powered down a LOT and/or sold out and/or left the platform! I think this is nothing more than a way to get the few big players (about 100 people) the last scraps at the expense of those who actually work hard!

I agree 100%

Yup @ned and @gtg and the NEW moron in charge wanna silence me! BRING IT! I got more SP than all them combined rn! They sold us out last year and are "laughing" and now we own the platform! FUCK THEM!

Ya fuck em!! Lol

Agreed, when I read this I thought 'made for the elite to benefit the elite' ....

Yup @ned and @gtg and the NEW moron in charge wanna silence me! BRING IT! I got more SP than all them combined rn! They sold us out last year and are "laughing" and now we own the platform! FUCK THEM!

Exactly right

Yup @ned and @gtg and the NEW moron in charge wanna silence me! BRING IT! I got more SP than all them combined rn! They sold us out last year and are "laughing" and now we own the platform! FUCK THEM!

You would never earn a penny if you don't have someone who would like to vote on your content. That's the way how Steem works. Actually that's the way how every producer-consumer relation works.

You would never earn a penny if you don't have someone who would like to vote on your content.

Too bad that currently "someone" means someone with a lot of power, which in turn realistically means a bot, because otherwise we're back to not a single penny.

But for original, high quality content there's a better chance to lure voters because it increase probability that ... it will lure even more voters.

Technically yes, in practice high quality alone is orders of magnitude not enough to matter. Votes of "common" people are literally meaningless, you would require dozens of them to cross the payout threshold (and I assume that after HF it will be even more). Literally the only chance at getting literally anything is to be somehow noticed by someone powerful or to get an upvote from a bot. So far the latter is infinitely more probable and usually absolutely independent of quality.

So yes, once you get that, high quality might help in propelling you even further, but without a random boost there's absolutely nothing in there for you. If you want any sort of gains then if you have to choose between focusing on getting bots' attention and doing high quality stuff, the former is the obvious choice.

All in all a casual user has nothing to do here - either scroll some Hot/Promoted, where first and foremost promoted stuff is, quality being only secondary, thus not really attractive in general, or scrape the rusty bottom of the barrel in New, which is pretty much entirely uncurated, because why would anyone bother, there is literally nothing to gain here and the quality is mediocre 99% of the time.

If you ask me why I'm here in the first place, well I gave up any hope for Steem as a content/social platform and now I'm just curious to see a how this failed experiment is going. Even though it's failed, it's still interesting to see how it fails.

Votes of "common" people are literally meaningless

You mean votes of people that didn't care to be vested in the platform.
Yes, those are meaningless by design :-)

There's no such thing as bots attention.
True, you need to be noticed by someone with SP to get rewarded.
HF21 is improving that chance by bringing more incentive to those.

True, votes from bots are independent of quality because they are bought.
That is also being mitigated by upcoming EIP included in HF21.

quality is mediocre 99% of the time

Because 1% of the platform are content creators. Others are just greedy, eager to grab author rewards. HF21 makes that situation better.

Yes, Steem is an experiment, and I'm around because of curiosity too, but I disagree that it's failed. IMHO it's not. It added and still ads a lot of value to whole industry.

This platform is no longer about content creators. That concept died roughly 18 months ago. At present, and I believe that what HF21 is about .... Is 'How do we ensure we can pillage the rest of the Steem?' ....

  ·  5 years ago (edited)

And all the little guys like us have buggered off - it's a real shame, we had something great going back in 2017, but the place sucks these days, and I really do think all the wankers who like to spank off and flag posts are going to get this place to themselves...

Playground bullies ....


Image Credit

Any pointers to relevant information on HF20 (I assume that's what you refer to by "roughly 18 months ago")? I mean sure, I could try to backtrack through steemitblog and find something, but I have a vague feeling I'll spend an unreasonable time doing that while someone better versed in getting around here will be able to find that in a few clicks. Also I'm interested in not only the dry technical specification, but also discussions like this one.

You guys turn against whales, not realizing that people who hold and buy SP are the ones who give any money to people who just want to cash out...

If it weren't "the rich", the small guys would have no one to dump their rewards to and you'd get 100% of nothing.

You mean votes of people that didn't care to be vested in the platform.
Yes, those are meaningless by design :-)

Ok, I have to admit I wasn't aware of this. Too bad that so many of those more invested in the platform are "greedy, eager to grab author rewards".

Why would a new content creator bother at all with joining here, only to drown in the cesspool, virtually undiscoverable? Why would a new user with a few hours to spend every other week bother with sifting through trash and casting votes that won't matter anyway? It seems very all-or-nothing, with 100% nothing being the most probable option.

It doesn't look like you could contribute some ok stuff every now and then or skim through new, upvoting good, undiscovered posts and gradually build yourself some reasonable power. If you're lucky to randomly get someone's attention you'll be getting maybe 0.1SP a week on average, which means it will take about 150 weeks = 3 years to amass anything above those 15SP you get by default via delegation, which is still virtually nothing.

By the way, it would feel much nicer if the delegation was not dropping at exactly the rate of you getting SP. It is a bit disheartening to know that no matter what you do, you will always have 15SP until you surpass that. It would be much more encouraging if it was for example still inverse proportional but at half the rate: 15SP delegated when you have 0 (15 total), 7.5 delegated when you have 15 (22.5 total), down to 0 delegated when you have 30 (30 total).

There's no such thing as bots attention.

Most (really most, like 80-90%) of my account's value comes from a few upvotes from a bot I didn't ask for (or at least not knowingly). It claims to do this automatically. I thought it was more common here (i.e. that bots are not only pay to get a vote or join some sort of a community by using a particular tag and/or delegating some power or similar).

Too bad that so many of those more invested in the platform are "greedy, eager to grab author rewards".

Unfortunately that's true, but they are harming themselves the most. HF21 is a step forward as it's much less effective now to be such a greedy bastard.

Why would a new content creator bother at all with joining here

Because with all that flaws and issues we are facing, it's still something vs nothing, compared to Facebook etc.

By the way, it would feel much nicer if the delegation was not dropping at exactly the rate of you getting SP.

I can also agree here. That's ridiculous and I was pointing that out to Steemit.
Plus - lack of gamification. Gamification is IMHO the key. Too bad that I'm far away with my skills from frontend related subjects. I'm still hoping that others can deal with that.

upvotes from a bot I didn't ask for

Smart bots that are fighting for curation rewards might chose to upvote content that "looks" promising in terms of getting more votes.

I'm not sure whether dragging author rewards down for low value posts will help much, but we'll see.

But more importantly, that's quite a false dichotomy with "something vs nothing". Some people are fine with just the exposure and flow of likes on Facebook, Twitter or Instagram. Ego fodder has its value too, after all. On Youtube, deviantArt, Bitchute or Twitch you can actually make money quite directly. Add Patreon and its clones to the mix and suddenly getting 0.10$ worth in an exotic cryptocurrency does not sound as appealing as you seem to think, especially given that only the first week matters. Steem is far from being a God's gift at monetisation, sadly.

Seems like I agree with most of what you are writing, maybe except that I still think that we have a chance to make a difference here :-)

Why would a new content creator bother at all with joining here, only to drown in the cesspool, virtually undiscoverable

HF21 is trying to improve discovery. So wait and see.

Does this guarantee that every valuable contribution will be discovered? No, but it improves the odds.

Making Steem better step by step is a step in the right direction.

You guys turn against whales, not realizing that people who hold and buy SP are the ones who give any money to people who just want to cash out...

If it weren't "the rich", the small guys would have no one to dump their rewards to and you'd get 100% of nothing.

By "you" you meant me? Because it's me who you are replying to :-)

I suck at replies in busy posts... hence why I posted on multiple places on this chain :D

  ·  5 years ago Reveal Comment

Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed replied, especially so late :)

I feel that steemit doesn't promote serious quality content, and these changes could end up mainly feeding the pretty closed eco system we have here. If you look at the stats, most of the users left are already curators, not authors, but that isn't the experience most people have. Most people we cross paths with seem to be primarily creators, which makes me wonder if the curation figures are skewed by it counting inactive users who left their steem auto running. I know more curation needs to be encouraged but when new or smaller users will really struggle to hit the part of the curve explained as earning more, and will actually land in the earning less, that doesn't encourage curation of those smaller posts. It encourages curation betting for those with plenty to earn back from it, upvoting things that are from other big users who are likely to do well or joining curation trails. It is already something that happens now. Widening the gap between smaller users and the top isn't going to encourage new or smaller users. My point isn't complaining that quality content doesn't get rewarded, but pointing out that it doesn't, so the responses to people to work or try harder show a lack of understanding.

I never said steemit should pay people like a full time job for blogging or writing. For me any earnings are a bonus, but I want the platform to do well, and for that to happen new and smaller users need to feel like they stand a chance.

I did think flags hurt your steem power so thank you for that explanation. I am glad they don't but even still it is so easy to destroy someone's reputation which in so many cases ends their use of the platform.

I can't think of steem like that, with us as authors splitting the profit, because that isn't a true representation. If that was the case, for a start I am pretty certain we wouldn't have dump flooded the market with so much steem in one go and crashed the price again and again.

Flagging is a decent proportion of the abuse people have been fighting though. There is another side to steem and you may not have seen it. Nearly all the flags I have witnessed have been personal, which is why people take them personally. I have only ever been flagged for personal reasons, and so many legitimate flags trigger a backlash of personal ones. Saying it isn't personal and the rarest of cases isn't true in my experience of the platform. It is a reality that needs addressing and as long as we ignore it, it's going to get worse. Especially with the comparisons being encouraged, some people think they are better than others, but hypothetically, does that mean it's okay for them to flag something that earnt more than they did (which because they think their post was better, makes the other post overvalued, regardless of what others thought) and take away from the earnings of that post, and hurt the reputation of the other user? I am sure you wouldn't think like that but some people on here do, just like some people engage in retaliation flagging and flagging people who support someone they are essentially in a dispute with. Only the dispute gets 'won' by the user with the most steem power, regardless of what it is or what the truth might be.

This is supposed to be for the good of steem but I am saying I don't think the flagging culture we have is good, and I don't think it encourages users to buy in and increase the value of the currency. Quite the opposite.

There should be a proper and separate way to deal with abuse. Imagine if any other platform expected the users to band together and down vote genuinely abusive people to stop them pushing users off the platform instead of just intervening. It can take a long time for people to try and stop abuse the way it is now. Plenty of platforms have these separated so abuse can be dealt with properly. If the abuse element is dealt with separately then there is no reason at all to make it free. I upvote something, it cost me from my upvote pool. If you disagree, surely it should cost you the same to cancel that out.

Thank you for the links. I didn't know there had been guides added, but I think given the way most people seem to flag, they don't know that either. People get flagged for copying the behaviour of big users they see doing well, but those users are untouchable for the mid level users who are actively trying to address the spam/shit posting. I am not just trying to be critical. I want the platform to do well and this doesn't feel good for smaller users. I am not critising you, or anyone individually here because in theory yes, flagging is fine, but I left this comment because that isn't the full reality of how it is currently being used.

The curve hitting the smaller users hardest feels like an issue to me, and I am not taking this out of context. It does say the users who earn more than 20 steem will earn more and those who earn less will earn less.

HF21 does change it, flagging is a problem here as it is, giving them away and telling people to use them in the way explained isn't going to encourage responsible use.

Personally, my posts, no body. I don't expect anyone to, if they want to that's wonderful but I don't expect it, at this point I worry about earning more than I should. I don't think encouraging people to turn on each other is going to lead to more positive engagement which is what leads to more natural curation. I get that isn't the point of your question, equally I don't feel sincere engagement is too much to expect. It worked on steem for a long time, and people would read people's posts and upvote them because they thought the post was good. The issue is wider with the currency losing value and people leaving the platform, alongside new users finding it hard to get established. Big users might need to be incentivised to vote, but I don't think most users do.

Thank you for your response, having to answer on my phone so hopefully didn't miss too much. I am not sure I have been throughly convinced this will be a good thing but you told me a few things I didn't know and raised some good points. Thank you.

Loading...

Props for a very thoughtful response.

IMHO using name "flag" for downvotes was a mistake. That created feeling that flag is something special.

We're gonna have to agree to disagree right there. That change seemed to be about connotations and I don't really care about that. I look at flags in a very endearing way as I understood their utility not too long from my entrance here.

Anyways

I understand the logic behind some of the changes. Actually, the theory around the convergent curve makes sense as it makes abuse a bit more apparent.

The problem I have is abuse has already been apparent. I see you flagging it and such is due commendation but so many do not care. That's why I harp on culture over protocol. And for that we need leaders like you flagging trending trash and more.

The few like lone wolf saintish flaggers are not going to solve the problem of chbartistes and his clones. We need coordination. We need StInc stepping up to the plate and having moral fortitude to make decisions as to what is good or not (for the platform).

The laissez faire stance is understandable but I don't think it's what Steem needs. There is gold here but it's buried deep. I mean in the concept that Steem ushered in.

We don't want a visionary taking it and dashing for the nearest exit. We need to build the vision here and now.

That's all I got. Thanks again

Thank you

That's why I harp on culture over protocol.

IMHO both protocol and culture are required,
but neither of them by itself is enough to make a difference.

It's up to us in the end :-)

Delete all the other BS you said and keep this ;-)
lol

Spot ON AD2!

I've basically said F.O. STEEMIT … and Embracing STEEM even more.
We've waited forever for SMT's and then dedicated, self made Whales have came out with Steem-Engine tokenization for the masses. STINC needs to stick to STEEM and leave the social media to someone else... FWIW.
@ned JUST RUN STEEM and Let Steemit die on the vine, it already STINCs to hi-heaven

🙄

I agree with all of the response here as it is written. But I can still totally see how it creates an unpleasant user experience, and that most don't want to participate in a curation game with up and downvotes and the need to please stakeholders, but instead just want simple guidelines for what it takes to earn rewards and make useful contributions to grow Steem.

At the end of the day, it will all come down to whether or not Steem Power holders allocates their upvotes and downvotes to create and foster a more attractive platform for users to join and become a part of. Let's make the most of the opportunity to do so.

I feel that interest is being diverted towards retribution, forgetting that we enter here because of the possibility of contributing through our content, contributed according to what I want to say and not to what others want to read.
We will end up castrating the creator and promoting the critic without generating content

Gives incentive to Steem Power holders to actually... hold the Steem Power and vote

Do we really think a 50/50 split is nearly enough to encourage people to hold more Steem Power? People are capturing 100% of their vote right now via self voting and that hasn't been enough to stem the slide in prices.

IMHO it's one of good steps forward.

By itself 50/50 would certainly not be enough. Downvotes and the curve and probably cultural changes also have to play a role.

  ·  5 years ago (edited)

No, I don't mean enough to make a change. I mean is that enough to encourage people to buy steem and power it up? I think for that to really happen you need to go to like an 80/20 curation split, 50/50 doesn't seem 'enough', don't you think?

Some are spinning this as SP holders are going to be making more now, but in reality most have been collecting close to 100% of the value of their 10 votes each day via self voting and selling votes, so them collecting 50%ish now is actually going to be a big drop for them...

How is that going to encourage people to buy more steem?

If people weren't buying more steem when they could collect 100% of their 10 votes each day, I am not sure how this is going to help in that regard.

  ·  5 years ago (edited)

I think for that to really happen you need to go to like an 80/20 curation split, 50/50 doesn't seem 'enough', don't you think?

Possibly. That exact question has been debated by stakeholders, witnesses and devs. We're trying 50/50 + 25% downvotes + a curve for now, where the latter two are seen as reducing the necessary curation share somewhat. Maybe enough, maybe not. If that doesn't work then we'll need to iterate in some manner.

you want to encourage better content and hold steem longer make the payouts after a month!

Curation should be 10% dividend.

Downvotes most be attached to a TOS violation.

a TOS VIOLATION LIST PUBLISHED AND REFERENCED ON EVERY PAGE

Write real curation system which makes people classify articles (not just upvote them)

Then have a catalog and search system based on the curation

So that we have a structured interconnected environment environment which allows bookmarking, feeds, nesgroups, plug-ins and dynamic content.

Where authors/creators useful and interesting content is found and promoted not by straight self voting but by the fact that they are on correlation with similar content people are exploring......

but of course instead you guys keep acting like the band playing on the deck of the titanic as it's sinking....

HEY WAKEUP THERE'S AN ICEBERG THERE AND YOUR HEADING TOWARDS IT!!!!!

No, you and your shitty zero effort memes and circle jerk crew are heading to the iceberg. Its greedy shitposters like yourself that denigrate this platform. You're only pissed because your profitable botting days are numbered.
Bye bye, wrap up warm.

I like what you wrote. My favorite part is the comparison between Steem and the ghetto tech cartel Hell-Holes, places like Facebook, empires that earn billions of dollars annually and they're not sharing a single penny of that as we are the product(s) that they trade. Steem is an example of an alternative. We also have Minds, etc.

Change is always necessary for growth to occur. The HF21 is a very fantastic idea.

Certainly it was not his most lucid moment to comment.
Many of his comments are only defenses of the status quo and not explanations as such of what HF21 means

Perhaps he is not very lucid either; but it seems that in the practice you promote, the curator is privileged above the author

Authors (good ones) are important for Steem, but curators are important for authors.

Maybe it's two different and opposite points of view.
According to my vision of this platform (not necessarily correct) the authors are important for curators, because without content they would do? ... criticize each other?
Now, without authors or content, only the whales would remain.
Could it be that they decided to stay alone? ... are they creating an elite with some intention that we don't know?

Those are not two different or opposite points of view.
It's how this ecosystem works. As mentioned - pretty much same as any other producer-consumer relation.

You have read the comments? ... there are different points of view, some of them opposite each other.
This platform is NOT a producer and consumer relationship because the good that is distributed in the interactions is limited and prefixed by distribution criteria and not transactions. In addition, an exchange eon is managed whose value is NOT the same for all producers or all consumers.

Well explained response here. It helped me to understand a little more how rewards works and will work in the future.