Hardfork 21 is HAPPENING. What will change?

fredrikaa (70) · 5 years ago

First of all, this is a great opportunity for people to start manually curating the way in which they believe it ought to be done. No more excuses that delegating to bid bots is too much more lucrative. We're all so lucky to be the first people ever with the power to influence and incentivize the behaviors and development that we want to see in the future social web. Let's build that shit together instead of quarreling over "rewards" that don't mean anything else than dilution + lowered STEEM price unless we use it to create something others find worth joining.

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edicted (72) · 5 years ago

This is a great opportunity to sell your free downvotes if you never plan on using them and to use bid bots to make sure all rewards are 20+ SP so you don't get cheated.

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fredrikaa (70) · 5 years ago

Hopefully, the stakeholders that have stayed with Steem through the bear market understands that min-maxing returns from selling down/up-votes doesn't result in profit, but a decrease in the value of their holdings. Let's change that.

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hobo.media (64) · 5 years ago

@edicted is making a point that is logical. The reality is that most people's posts don't get anywhere near 20 STEEM without bidbots. That's just a cold hard reality. This change is making bidbots more necessary for content producers.

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fredrikaa (70) · 5 years ago

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zoef (64) · 5 years ago

No the cold hard reality is that new people will loose interest before they even know how it all works. What they should have done is make post with higher value on it reduce the gain. And those with lower votes gain more. That is logic. Now they are kissing up to high sp people.

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fredrikaa (70) · 5 years ago (edited)

No the cold hard reality is that new people will loose interest before they even know how it all works.

We can't know this until we've seen how things play out. But I agree that it is a fair concern that smaller users, communities, and comments in general may suffer.

However, stakeholders can choose to avoid this if they want. We for instance build our curation system on @steempress to add support behind a large number of curation projects. So that smaller users who write original content and get engagement from others can quite easily reach 20 Steem in total post rewards.

Speaking for Steem in general, a lot rests on the assumption that a significant amount of the stake currently delegated to bid bots will go back towards manual curation, as well as downvotes returning rewards from vote farmers to proper users.

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zoef (64) · 5 years ago

Like you said before nearly no one earns 20$ on their posts at the moment. The only people that do are those with either a big pocket or a big following. They will be earning more. But to be frank it is not those people that need to stay around to make a "SOCIAL" network. It are the small people that make or break a big system like steem. We have seen a decline in activity for months now. Because the small people don't interact anymore. Everyone is scrounging to get ever last bit of steem. And what do the devs do? Make shure the small people earn even less while the big whales earn more .... ?

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worldfinances (61) · 5 years ago

@fredrikaa I think this upgrade is based on wishes how we all want it to be, but it's also based on 0% reality. You who were working on upgrade, should have known better by now

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krecikdwamiljony (37) · 5 years ago

However, stakeholders can choose to avoid this if they want.

Why would they want to choose to avoid this if they didn't want to choose to avoid this so far?

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por500bolos (68) · 5 years ago

However, stakeholders can choose to avoid this if they want.

Ah! that's the KEY question here. If they choooose to avoid 'this' if they want!! eh?

C'mon @fredrikaa. Please, start reading another kind of stuff. :)

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stealthtrader (67) · 5 years ago

I mean we are a SOCIAL NETWORK.. So why not use our voices for things we believe in instead of just making money.. I see arguments for both sides, but I like to personally upvote posts because some people post things I like and sometimes they post things I don't so.. I guess it's like voting.. You have a voice and it's up to you to use it.

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fredrikaa (70) · 5 years ago

I think if people on Steem just voted what they actually liked, it would result in everyone - especially those holding Steem Power - earning more money. Curation rewards and bid bot returns are not "profits" if you're a stakeholder, because it comes from inflation that dilutes your assets. To make real money is to increase the value of the token.

ackza (72) · 5 years ago (edited)

Yes to increase the value of the token is much bette rthan blogging and when we get bloggers to focus on posting about steem OUTSIDE of steem on twitter and youtube reddit etc we can bring in bitcoin holders to invest LARGE bags in steem I MEAN LARGE bags

but yeah its sad to realize that so many people would have a completely different outlook if someone early on at steemit inchad just set up a wolf of wallstreet style marketing dept that pulled in users to an inner circle to see how many new investors one single highly motivated individual could bring in and then TASK that work out to thousands of users... the blokchain is about to undergo things like thsi with TASK token and CAPTCHA and @steenm.ninja INV invite token and its possible distribution via @banjo discord bot for onboarding but we need @steemit @steem @elipowell to check out the work of inertia and maybe fund it to get a massive network of discord steembots issuing steem accounts but EVEN WITHOUT steemit incs help it will happen on its own thats the exciting part. steem is going to start working on its own in a free market way that will show off what steem is truley capable off , all the demand steem can drive froim tribes and steem engine trading and much more.

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nathen007 (68) · 5 years ago

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tytran (54) · 5 years ago (edited)

What the heck does Nationality or race have anything to do with this? Steem has never depended on anyone but a few wealthy whales (From all around the world) to find its true price, and there is no need to keep users that need convincing. They can sell if they want now and waste their steem on a few dollars of food , when they could have held their savings. You arent supposed to cash out of your stock market savings portfolio just because the prices are low :)
Your argument really came out of left field and it feels like youre actually upset about something else, and I understand the concern for steemians in developing countries but they shouldnt deserve and dont want special treatment. They knew what they were getting into, and many of us dont look a gift horse in the mouth.
Many of these people you refrence got a lot of steem for free and if they did buy it, they can wait the market out like everyone else for steem to find a bottom. There arent that many whales who even own very much steem so the bottom is bound to be somewhere near 7 to 10 cents where a few other whales I know got in (They wont want others to get in) So tell the people in developing nations to place their buy orders very low, maybe then they can become whales on steem and if and when we go back to $ to $8 range this will all have been worth it. or it can go down as far as people are willing to sell it to, but there isnt an infinite supply and it cant get too cheap without certain whales being unable to control their urge to buy millions of steem at less than 10 cents ... etc etc

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joeyarnoldvn (61) · 5 years ago

Exactly.

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fredrikaa (70) · 5 years ago

You left out the important of "if you're a stakeholder".

My point was to make it clear that curation rewards and bid bot returns are not "profits" to someone who has bought Steem. Because those tokens dilute their existing stake at the same time. So if you want to get more wealthy as someone holding Steem, your focus should be on what you can do to increase the value of the tokens that you have.

So nothing you wrote made any sense in the full context of what I said.

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nathen007 (68) · 5 years ago

Not everyone who has bought Steem has done so as an investment. Some have simply bought it as 'pay to play' to increase their enjoyment of the platform.
Always the talk of is of investment and ROI but this is not everyone's primary motive for being here.
Everyone who has 'invested' time here is also a stakeholder. It is still an unlevel playing field designed to exponentially help those with more financial wealth than those without. Exact the people Blockchain technology would benefit the most.

Posted using Partiko Android

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kimberlylane (61) · 5 years ago

My sentiments exactly, @nathen007.

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whyaskwhy (60) · 5 years ago

I think both social and business are being harnessed here! Isn't it a win win synergy??

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joeyarnoldvn (61) · 5 years ago

Why not both?

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nathen007 (68) · 5 years ago

First of all, this is a great opportunity for people to start manually curating the way in which they believe it ought to be done

I read and upvote many articles. If my vote is worth 0.01 now, it will be worth 0.02 after. That's NOT going to change my voting or curation behaviour one iota.

Let's build that shit together instead of quarreling over "rewards" that don't mean anything else than dilution + lowered STEEM price unless we use it to create something others find worth joining.

Rewards mean a great deal to many people here.....not you, of course, you're living the first world dream which is great but there are people here from all over the globe, so try and use a global context to the discussion instead of your simple, rose-tinted first-world perspective.

No more excuses that delegating to bid bots is too much more lucrative

So you will be withdrawing your delegation to OCDB then from which you make a tidy sum each day?

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fredrikaa (70) · 5 years ago

I read and upvote many articles. If my vote is worth 0.01 now, it will be worth 0.02 after. That's NOT going to change my voting or curation behaviour one iota.

My comment here is mostly addressing the opportunity to get the tens of millions of SP currently delegated to bidbots to be used to curate to create a web that we want, and the potential impact that can have.

Rewards mean a great deal to many people here.....not you, of course, you're living the first world dream which is great but there are people here from all over the globe, so try and use a global context to the discussion instead of your simple, rose-tinted first-world perspective.

If you want to be taken seriously, then make arguments based on the content of what is said and not the identity of the person saying it. Anyone can earn Steem and become a significant stakeholder here. So the comment does apply to anyone anywhere.

So you will be withdrawing your delegation to OCDB then from which you make a tidy sum each day?

That's my plan. Although ocdb is not like other bid bots since it provides good content creators added opportunity to earn mroe Steem.

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nathen007 (68) · 5 years ago

Good content creators . Again good depends on your starting definition.

Posted using Partiko Android

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joeyarnoldvn (61) · 5 years ago

I hope so.

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wangchung (62) · 5 years ago

Shouldn't our main priority be to grow the user base, the price would then take care of itself?

These changes seem to most likely do the opposite of that, do they not?

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krischik (61) · 5 years ago

Yes, this change will indeed deter new users. Create an account. Play a bit around, never get above the dust value, abandon account.

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wakeupkitty (75) · 5 years ago

The changes are made to make investors rich. You better be an investor. This way you earn and do not need to write/post/comment.

Posted using Partiko Android

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krischik (61) · 5 years ago

But without new users your investment is going down the drain. Slaughtering the goose that lays golden eggs.

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tinabrezpike (64) · 5 years ago

On point

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freebornangel (73) · 5 years ago

and because the Witnesses are ultimately accountable to Steem’s stakeholders, the odds are maximized toward only positive changes being made

Laughable, at best.

We expect posts that would make more than 20 STEEM under the old rules to earn more after the changes. Those posts that would have made less than 20 STEEM under the old rules will receive less after the changes.

Well, if you needed a FU newbs, here ya go.

Unless the whales step up it looks like a curtain call to me!
See ya on broadway!

That means you will be rewarded significantly more for curating content after the fork.

Yea! My .002 is is going to .004!

Props for the honesty, stinc.
That took backbone.

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17 votes

anthonyadavisii (70) · 5 years ago (edited)

🔥🔥🔥

!dramatoken

As an added bonus, here's a GIF I just made in honor of this most glorious fork.

So, what if our whale overlords have decided the crumbs that fall from their tables should be a bit smaller?

At least we are getting crumbs! We collect them over time and we just might have enough for a WHOLE SLICE OF BREAD.

Maybe over a year or so we will have a whole loaf! 😋

Now that's a lot of CALORIES! 🍞

So, what if it's a little moldy by then. That's just EXTRA FLAVOR!

Don't be ungrateful, @freebornangel! Fall back in line, citizen! 👮

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tytran (54) · 5 years ago

If you want the dolphins and whales to enjoy steem more and maybe BUY MORE steem, we MIGHT need this :) Imagine the dolphins who benefit get excited enough from these changes to buy more steem, the price of steem goes up and all of our rewards go up to new levels, levels that we may never have gotten to without these changes

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krischik (61) · 5 years ago

Doesn't look like it. Looks more like they started selling when they read the HF21 paper.

Should have done so as well. Silly me.

anthonyadavisii (70) · 5 years ago

I have been but with much trepidation which is prudent imo.

As long as the bid bot owners as well as founder circle jerk circles hijack inflation without proof-of-brain it is risky.

Perhaps, the technical changes w the fork may assuage my concerns but I am one to suppose the problem tends to be more a matter of culture and lack of decisive leadership from the large stakeholders up until this point.

I appreciate your enthusiasm but in my line of work here exposes me to some shady things. Things that don't imbue me with confidence.

Don't get me wrong. Steem has countless redeeming qualities but make no mistake. There is a cancer and we are gearing up for a slightly more aggressive yet unfocused treatment.

If StInc would take a hard stance against vote selling collusion and impenitent token manipulators, I think the prognosis would be much better. They could always delegate that responsibility to @steemflagrewards. 🙃

Time will tell.

Posted using Partiko Android

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wakeupkitty (75) · 5 years ago

How about all of us buying some Steem?

Posted using Partiko Android

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anthonyadavisii (70) · 5 years ago

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freebornangel (73) · 5 years ago

Sir, yes sir!
The recruit will fall back into line and make due with his fortunate position in the crumb line!

Just keep that lobster under control!

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dramatoken (62) · 5 years ago

Such drama, you've earned a DRAMA!

^{To view or trade DRAMA go to steem-engine.com.}

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luca1777 (60) · 5 years ago

:) I like the Drama Token...haha
They def. earned some! ;)

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baah (61) · 5 years ago

Well, if you needed a FU newbs, here ya go.

It has absolutely nothing to do with newbs, it is about posts being rewarded more than 20 steem which has nothing to do with newbs.

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freebornangel (73) · 5 years ago

Sublinear.

Exponentially.

baah (61) · 5 years ago

Yeah, so after I pointed out that your FUD about newbs was bullshit you come back with non sequitur response.

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freebornangel (73) · 5 years ago

Lol,...

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baah (61) · 5 years ago (edited)

I've had several discussions with you regarding not only how (read: not why) we got to this point, but also these proposals and so when I see your bullshit about "they said the rich get richer" or "screw the newbs" it's satisfying to call it out knowing that we both know how full of shit you are. You lately respond to being called out with more nonsense/bullshit and/or snickering, for whatever reason, showing me that you

Have

Been

Reduced.

I've effectively countered your nonsense, and while you've had numerous opportunities to respond in a thoughtful manner you foolishly hunker down behind the same sentiment of "development is shit and stakeholders are worse" with your snickering and petulant nonsense and you're completely convinced it seems, that by slandering either the community/stakeholders or the development (which is one and the same as far as I'm concerned) you are holding their toes to the fire, but what I see you do is neither holding their toes to the fire or honoring the principles behind such, like accountability, which comes chiefly from integrity, so it simply is slanderous nonsense and its mostly to castigate it seems, and you think steemit/whales as responsible and you think you're holding them accountable but you are not accountable or responsible for what you claim even, a burden that is considered so cursory it ought never to be evaded, but that doesn't mean you don't have very high standards of others and think you deserve to lecture them on principles like integrity and responsibility.

Cut the bullshit already, what are you trying to do, because it seems like thousands of failuires later you're trying the exact same thing/still sticking to the script, but now you have me in the mix though, taking every single opportunity (and sometimes tripling it) to make sure that I exemplify the way to respond to bullshit. I'll let you know when it's over.

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freebornangel (73) · 5 years ago

Lol, give me hell, baah!

I'm just trying to understand the math.
You don't have to appreciate my methods.
Nor do you have to agree that when somebody makes changes that were known to be flawed doubles down on those changes I should double down on my contentious resistance to said changes.
If you remember correctly, steemit was on the soon to be deprecated list not that long ago.

As for the shadow banning, there is only one way to prove what I said, and I'm betting it's only a matter of time until I find more broken links.

I will be sure to tag you when I do.

baah (61) · 5 years ago

I'm just trying to understand the math.

Good one, is that why you're asking instead of stating?

You don't have to appreciate my methods.

Cut the crap. Methods aren't unsubstantiated slanderous nonsense.

Nor do you have to agree that when somebody makes changes that were known to be flawed doubles down on those changes I should double down on my contentious resistance to said changes.

What changes exactly? That's what I fucking thought, vague nonsense.

If you remember correctly, steemit was on the soon to be deprecated list not that long ago.

Which list? Who's list?

As for the shadow banning, there is only one way to prove what I said, and I'm betting it's only a matter of time until I find more broken links.

Broken links don't mean shit. You think that the simplest explanation for a broken link is a massive conspiracy to "shadowban" you, because when you regard unadulterated slander as a methodology of operating then the simplest explanation is the most insane and idiocy ridden one.

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krischik (61) · 5 years ago

You missed the other half:

Those posts that would have made less than 20 STEEM under the old rules will receive less after the changes.

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baah (61) · 5 years ago

What are you talking about? Does that mean that it has absolutely anything to do with "newbs", because you just exemplified how to completely miss the other person's point, point being that the quote is not referring at all to new users.

Fuck it's painful to watch the idiotic nonsense that leaves people's mouths like a bad habit before they consider what they read or even what they said.

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krischik (61) · 5 years ago

The new payout rules have absolutely something to do with discouraging new users. You just choose to not see it.

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stimp1024 (76) · 5 years ago

Have to disagree with you on a number of points. But firstly I have said before I would like the changes to have gone further, maybe 10/90 split. The truth is the vast majority of users will never earn by posting, however they can continue to do so in the hope a post goes viral. When most of the upvotes are worth practically nothing anyway, we need a way for those accounts to grow enough so their vote counts, yes the rewards to authors will hit their earnings but if the votes they get are worth more it should compensate for the loss in earnings.

You need some way in my view to distribute Steem to the lesser accounts and then in turn they will distribute it back. You can't prevent some of this being sold but good Curation incentives should be enough to curtail that. What is certain is that the current model isn't working and with the ability to just earn by delegating to bots it just plays into the hands of those with the most Steem.

Another problem is the bad image it presents that you just sign up with a Steem account and the $$$ just pour in, that doesn't help in the long run. Also there is much more to do than just post and upvote so the focus needs to be getting users to get Steem and Power Up. There are vastly more users who will benefit from Curation rewards than will ever benefit from Post rewards. The problem though is this doesn't fix the other problem, that is getting users to manually upvote original content and stop them delegating to bidbots. If you could fix that aspect as well then I think you would have a better Steem eco system.

But like someone above said its also not about how many rewards you get its about how much those rewards are worth so the focus must be on increasing the token value, I think there is enough going on in Steem to attract new users so I am confident this won't have such a bad effect on that as you believe.

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krischik (61) · 5 years ago

I'm not actually all that much bothered about the 50/50 Split. The decrease in income for postings under 20 Steem bothers me.

And that will hit both small authors and curators. And the amount of posts is already falling:

As is the amount of votes:

As is the value of steem itself. Note that I did buy steem and powered up in the past. But I don't see a point in it any more.

My suspicion: The dolphin to wales have all the steem they want and smaller accounts are disillusioned and don't want to invest.

As for a 10/90 split: Why not go all the way and do 0/100 split like @dtube? We'll see how that will work's out. It's worth a try.

baah (61) · 5 years ago

You just choose not to point out in no uncertain way how that limit has anything to do with new users, so I'll just continue to point out that the curve does not have anything to do with new users, it's entirely about posts, not users.

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krischik (61) · 5 years ago

If you like pointless nitpicking then go ahead.

But I have a question for you: Who makes those postings? And who curates those postings?

Hint: They are macroscopic so they don't pop into existence out of the quantum foam.

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baah (61) · 5 years ago

There's nothing pointless or nitpicky about what I said. Here I'll repeat it again because I like reiterating what you attempted to mitigate to "pointless nitpicking" as:

A curve for posts has ABSOLUTELY no-thing to do with new users.

Do your best to marginalize, change the topic or any thing to that effect.

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stealthtrader (67) · 5 years ago

Unless the whales step up..

50% curation reward and the #NewSteem campaign might change all this.. Or else why are all even here..

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freebornangel (73) · 5 years ago

Yes, if the whales step up and put an end to the abuse it might be worth hanging out, but if they chase off most of the people, what are we doing here?

We already can't get many views as it is.

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furion (70) · 5 years ago

Would you guys consider publishing some kind of rankings related to the amount of value posts bring to steemit (ie. backlinks, traffic from social media and search engines, etc)? This might allow bidbots to be more selective and only upvote authors who create content that grows the platform.

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meesterboom (78) · 5 years ago

Survival guide? There is absolutely nothing in here about sleeping bags and hiding under the bed. I feel cheated.

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bitrocker2020 (77) · 5 years ago

hahah ! best reply ever ! you made them change the title .. HF 21 yo !

angryman (67) · 5 years ago (edited)

Sleeping bags will be having zippers removed in order to make escape easier when attacked by a bear market, @meesterboom ... Unfortunately, beds will be lowered making it virtually impossible for anyone to hide from being jabbed in the ass with a hardfork….

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meesterboom (78) · 5 years ago

That's why I don't trust beds!

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smasssh (66) · 5 years ago

And what about steemitblog? Been cheated twice now; they changed the headtitle ...

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meesterboom (78) · 5 years ago

Aw. I feel bad. I was only joking! :0D

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arthur.grafo (69) · 5 years ago

...or to hang themselves from...

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mrchef111 (69) · 5 years ago

It's been a long time, since I have commented, but this is awesome! I have been so busy, haven't had much time for content consumption lately.

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meesterboom (78) · 5 years ago

Hey dude!! Glad you are busy, your YouTube channel working well?

It's the same old same old with me!!

mrchef111 (69) · 5 years ago

Yeah it is going pretty well! Just passed 70k subs. But it is still like full time work for not even half time pay! LOL Just launched another ebook on Amazon, a little mini cookbook. And started some merch too. Things are progressing, still way slower then I would like! LOL Glad things are well with you.

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meesterboom (78) · 5 years ago

70K! You are laughing! Once you got that magic 100K Mark you are in turbo charged mode!! Awesome stuff man!

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mrchef111 (69) · 5 years ago

oh yes the coveted "Silver" which really isn't silver play button! haha Thanks man!! :) :)

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meesterboom (78) · 5 years ago

Aw, it's not silver! Swines!

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smasssh (66) · 5 years ago

Lmao!

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joythewanderer (78) · 5 years ago (edited)

Yea I was expecting how we should remember to change voting time etc.

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daveks (77) · 5 years ago

Lol

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stackin (78) · 5 years ago

Let’s see what happens! I’m prepared! 🤑

Posted using Partiko iOS

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stealthtrader (67) · 5 years ago

Wow I still can't believe at one point we were fighting for Ethereum for the #2 spot on coinmarketcap!!
https://cointelegraph.com/news/steem-chasing-ether-in-market-cap

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julescape (56) · 5 years ago

That is amazing, just over three years ago. Now we know how much the altcoin market can change in just three years. The other top coins are still there though. Steem is the one that has lost its position majorly.

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steevc (73) · 5 years ago

Here we go again :) I hope this one goes smoothly as keeping the Steem blockchain going should be the priority. There will be new opportunities with these new conditions. I hope the curators will choose to vote up the good content and not just go for short term profits. Steem has lost enough users lately and we do not want to drive more away. Maybe the big accounts can use their free downvotes to counter some of the abuse.

Onward and upwards!

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katharsisdrill (71) · 5 years ago

I think that the rule that will favour posts over 20 steem will crash all the small content creators to be honest. We have to wait and see of course, but the general impression I have is that if a post make more than 10 $ it is crap and scam.

whyaskwhy (60) · 5 years ago

Yes! Onwards and Upwards! But can this be guaranteed by this hardfork?? I ask because many a hope were dashed after the previous fork!!

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steevc (73) · 5 years ago

Nothing is guaranteed. We know there are lots of greedy people on Steem who will just take, but there are some good whales who vote up quality stuff. If they vote down the crap and buying votes has less profit then it could improve. It depends if they go for profit or for the community.

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whyaskwhy (60) · 5 years ago

Well thought out. Let's keep hope alive!!

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fraenk (62) · 5 years ago

We expect posts that would make more than 20 STEEM under the old rules to earn more after the changes.

That's really weird!

When I look at the graph for the convergent linear curve... I don't see it ever going above the old linear curve... why then would a post earn more after the fork?

If I take that into a graph calculator I don't see this go above the old figures anywhere. Are you expecting claims to be worth more STEEM after the fork so that the same amount (slightly less actually) would be worth more STEEM in rewards than before?

I guess that could make sense as the globally distributed claims get less under the same number of rshares being generated through voting. Adding in some more of those free flags to the pool of votes, the same amount of claims might be worth even more in actual rewards... did I just answer my own question?

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smooth (70) · 5 years ago (edited)

Some content will earn more from the pool simply because the pool is a zero-sum game in the short term. The absolute value of the curve doesn't matter, only the relative value. Whatever is reduced the least (which in practice is the higher end) will actually be an increase in practice.

did I just answer my own question?

You did!

addax (61) · 5 years ago

Linear does not mean proportional. Your blue line is slightly wrong, it should not go through (0,0), there is a small SP gap that is deducted from each upvote - about 3 SP if I recall.
Look at the graphs in the old reward curve post - then factor in the general loss of author rewards.

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fraenk (62) · 5 years ago

Linear does not mean proportional.

And what is that supposed to mean???

I know... since HF20 50 million rshares are always deducted from every vote... that's more like 1.5SP I think... you wouldn't even see that in the image of the graph unless zooming in very very very close. But yes, I did not include it in the graph, it's totally irrelevant to my initial question.

Look at the graphs in the old reward curve post - then factor in the general loss of author rewards.

I still don't get what you are trying to tell me.

hilarski (76) · 5 years ago

Please correct me if I am wrong. If I buy an upvote post hardfork, I will be paying curators 50% instead of 25%? I believe this will put the nail in the coffin of buying votes as a means to earn.

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pibara (60) · 5 years ago

Actually, it will do the oposite. Everything about HF21 is hardwired to promote growth of the bidbot economy within the main STEEM ecosystem.

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rycharde (63) · 5 years ago

correct. the changes needed are minimal and, let's not forget, the value of any paid vote is relative to the value of one's upvote (of an upvote in general).

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smooth (70) · 5 years ago

The price of bought votes will likely decline. Whatever other changes might also happen due to freer use of downvotes, differences in voting behaviour, etc. is more speculative and more difficult to predict.

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stackin (78) · 5 years ago (edited)

I’m thinking some will still survive by increasing Roi to buyers from their curation. Some will probably adapt to a token as a means of paying back value. Who knows! 😂

Or curation trails might be the way to go just like it did couple years ago. 🤷🏼‍♂️

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tcpolymath (68) · 5 years ago

Did the custom json collision semi-solution make it into the fork? I've seen vague mentions of that but it doesn't seem to be in any of your posts.

At this point that's much more important to the future of user experience than the entire voting system.

justinw (60) · 5 years ago

If you mean increasing the number of allowed custom_json ops per block, yes - that has been bumped to 5 per block from 1.

The complete release notes are here

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viking-ventures (69) · 5 years ago

I have only earned 20 SBD once or twice on a Curied post - before STEEM dropped. (A Curie used to be worth 50+ SBD. Now, it's around 9-10 SBD.)
From what I have seen, the vast majority of quality posters are lucky to earn even 1 SBD per post! So, the ones that have the means to buy their votes will do well from this HF. The rest of us will suffer.

What's your plan to keep good bloggers around? What's your plan to attract new ones? The life of Steem depends on content producers, yet every time we turn around, it's harder and harder to function unless you can afford to put in serious investment - and who is going to do that when the bloggers are leaving - or not even bothering to join in the first place?

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kaylinart (75) · 5 years ago

I'm actually really excited about this, The way I see it. Is Authors will get rewarded more, Because people can make money just by voting. So for those people who are posting just for profit, Won't have to. This will hopefully drop the amount of posters but get those with power to ensure they are using their votes.

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14 votes

thegoliath (66) · 5 years ago

It's just like how the tribes have been, with the incentive to manually curate due to 50/50 rewards which is what I did. Steemit for awhile didn't give too much for hard work, except for your upvotes @kaylinart and then odd times you get lucky to get something decent.

It will be good to see anyone working hard on a post, get rewarded from more people upvoting with higher values and knowing you both get rewarded!

viking-ventures (69) · 5 years ago

I really, really hope so! If so, it could be a real boon for Steem - and a model for the other blockchains to follow.

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por500bolos (68) · 5 years ago

So for those people who are posting just for profit, Won't have to. This will hopefully drop the amount of posters but get those with power to ensure they are using their votes.

Hahaha Yeah! @kaylinart. I just wonder what the heck will be available to 'Curate' in an environment of exclusively pure c-u-r-e-i-t-o-r-s? ;p

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justineh (71) · 5 years ago

The post says 20 STEEM, not SBD (which is about $3.40 at current price).

viking-ventures (69) · 5 years ago (edited)

Good catch. Apologies.

Still, that makes the number around 6 SBD right now - only my curied posts get that much - and I'm sure the same is true for the vast majority of bloggers on the platform.

I really hope the hoped-for increase in curation makes up for the loss that most of us will see.

freebornangel (73) · 5 years ago

Double your curation rewards and ask yourself if that compensates.

They just said, 'we expect the rich to get richer'.

If the whales don't downvote enough to replicate the whale experiment look for steem to go on sale.

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elektropunkz (58) · 5 years ago

Have you seen the current rates? I would say it is on sale already, steem is down 90% since i joined

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freebornangel (73) · 5 years ago

Yes, I've ridden the rocket from .07 to 8.0 and all the way back to .16.
I'm not buying, just yet.
I bought at .2 and am waiting for .1, or lower.

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justineh (71) · 5 years ago

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amar-patel (57) · 5 years ago

I agree with you..From last 15 days, I am posting 2 to 3 quality post every day, I hardly make 2 SBD But I believe in Steem. It will rise as of now i am not earning enough but i am trying to build solid reputation inside the community.

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smooth (70) · 5 years ago

The break even point they mentioned in the post is 20 STEEM not 20 SBD. That's more like $3.60 at current prices. Even somewhat below that, the effect is pretty modest. People are freaking out thinking they'll get completely screwed out of rewards if the post value is below 20 STEEM but mostly that isn't true. At 15 or 10 STEEM you may not even notice the difference given regular daily price change on STEEM of +/- 5-10% as well as other factors.

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drutter (69) · 5 years ago

Lately, most of my posts (original and high quality) end between 1 and 3 STEEM. (Average 2.) I've been on STEEM 2 years, full time, and I work with a team of models, including my wife. We invested $5000 into STEEM when we arrived. Our current total is LESS THAN that! In fact it's far less, only $500. We have worked 2 years, and invested 5 grand, and it's down to $500. And we are putting out excellent content that is in demand. Will my 2 STEEM payouts be decreased by the new 20 STEEM break even point? I think so.
But we will get a fraction of a STEEM more for our curation, so that's supposed to make it okay?
HF21 is even worse than HF20 and that's saying something.

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smooth (70) · 5 years ago (edited)

We invested $5000 into STEEM when we arrived. Our current total is LESS THAN that! In fact it's far less, only $500

In fact this is the most important thing. Your STEEM/SP is worth less because the price of Steem has declined, in large part because Steem has not been successful in executing on its vision.

That is more important than payouts. You aren't going to make back $5000 in losses (and hopefully make more than that) through payouts no matter what. This is a futile treadmill mentality. Work to improve the value of Steem.

People are much too focused on payouts as a source of investment payoff when they should be focused on the success of Steem and the price/value going up as a result.

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master-set (64) · 5 years ago

There must be NO downwotes at all, not more of this censorship shit

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knircky (73) · 5 years ago (edited)

Pretty much hate all changes in this hf

All changes will hurt user experience. With users I mean those that create value by creating content.

As an author you will simply earn less overall. So creating valuable content makes even less sense now.
bots will have a field day, by simply upvoting popular content at the perfect time.

What steem needs is content creators to get rewarded for producing content people consume and enjoy. This goes against all of this.

Why not just pay all rewards to SP holders at least that would be straight forward instead of gradually destroying the value prop for content creators

The HF of course is amazing if you run a site for bots or any vote automation where you do not hold your own SP.

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ackza (72) · 5 years ago (edited)

Rewards
The rewards curve is changing. We expect posts that would make more than 20 STEEM under the old rules to earn more after the changes. Those posts that would have made less than 20 STEEM under the old rules will receive less after the changes.

What does this even mean? Very confusing

So basically is it saying... if you dont make at least 20 steem on your posts, expect to start making less? LOL ok... if youre going to give more rewards to the people with more SP just fucking say it, nothing wrong with rewarding success. @mughat called it "ProofofProfit" and honestly you should reward people who get more rewards...

(Reply is to @steemitblog not you @knircky )

71 recognize another 71 my equal rep nigga

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fredrikaa (70) · 5 years ago

It's important to note that it is unknown how much of the new available downvote pool will be used, and that it will also change whether good creators earn more. Thus it's hard to state exactly at what level people will earn more versus less after the fork.

But it is a fair concern that this will harm small communities and things like positive curation on comments.

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anthonyadavisii (70) · 5 years ago

But it is a fair concern that this will harm small communities and things like positive curation on comments.

This is precisely my concern with SFR but guess I can't really expect a group focused on our kind of values to be large. Think our prospect in particular is bleak unless we make some drastic adjustments.

Posted using Partiko Android

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arthur.grafo (69) · 5 years ago

It's important to note that it is unknown how much of the new available downvote pool will be used

...and where do you see, within this page, which is supposed to be an open debate (debate means all points of view should have the opportunity to argue their beliefs) comments that deserve downvoting?

Since it has happened, it means we are supposed to feel intimidated and shut up?

That is the new steemit?

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fredrikaa (70) · 5 years ago (edited)

There are plenty of comments that may deserve downvoting to remove rewards. Especially when it is low effort trolling, or just plain negativity. Then I think any stakeholder who cares for the platform and experience of the users who add value to Steem should downvote it to remove rewards and make sure it is instead returned to those to bring value.

That being said, I'm completely against big stakeholders being able to hide comments through downvotes, and think that part of steemit is not doing any good. Lastly, I don't know why people would be afraid to comment because of downvotes. It is not like not earning anything on a comment makes you lose something?

In any case, the main use for downvotes will be the many self voters and abusers who look to get away with voting on spammed low effort content/comments. Of which there are plenty.

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arthur.grafo4 (60) · 5 years ago

I asked you specifically about comments here, in this discussion.
As for calling it trolling or negative...isn't that a matter of opinion? If I disagree with you, I am being negative or am trolling? Even if a number of other posters consider the points made valid and they reward the poster?

It sounds to me like a disrespect of others, since you are indirectly claiming that only your own opinion is valid and deserving of being upvoted.

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fredrikaa (70) · 5 years ago

It's indeed all subjective and downvotes are not meant to be anything other than the opposite of an upvote where token holders express their opinion on what deserves more attention versus less.

It doesn't have to be trolling or negative. For instance, when @knircky just gave a full downvote to my comment I'm sure it mostly reflects his desire to see criticism of the fork get more attention and rewards, and thus downvote anything else above it that he disagrees with. That is fine, and how the curation system is intended to work.

I don't know if he's aware of the fact that I completely agree with his concerns though, and that my positive comment was not there to speak in favor of the fork, but rather to state that regardless of it we need more stake being used to vote good content and retain users, and that the changed rules whether you like them or hate them is a chance to reset bad habits and try to do things better.

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thepen (46) · 5 years ago

For instance, when @knircky just gave a full downvote to my comment I'm sure it mostly reflects his desire to see criticism of the fork get more attention and rewards

Yes... but then you Upvoted your own post .... after the downvote to Protect your investment in your post as well as your Rewards on your own Post.

While also writing this:

...the main use for downvotes will be the many self voters

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smooth (70) · 5 years ago (edited)

I see several comments which are over-rewarded mostly due to self-voting (I already downvoted one at my own expense since there are no free downvotes yet, and I may downvote others if I see them too). It isn't that the comments are bad necessarily, but when some people see the reward pool as a personal feeding trough the result is that everyone suffers from it.

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knircky (73) · 5 years ago

Yea this is horrible

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aaliyahholt (68) · 5 years ago

I couldn't agree more.

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pibara (60) · 5 years ago (edited)

It basically boils down to: If you are smaller than an orca, move your stake and posts to a Scot tribe or start using bid bots like crazy.

The market doesn't like this HF. Most users won't like this HF. This HF is basically a HF for the bid bot owners and whales and orcas who like to have fun waging flag wars.

Steemit has been fun while it lasted, guess its time to move our minnow/dolphin stake to #creativecoin and other scot tribes.

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tytran (54) · 5 years ago

nahhh no no steem has to reward the whales orcas etc, they will bring the price higher

let them have flag wars they will be forced to buy more steem to fight each other, EVENTUALLY two political parties at opposing ends of a spectrum will get into a war on steem where each will go to their fundraising elements on each side back and forth untill we basically have the RNC and DNC both on steem :D Or maybe Indian or European political parties or West African might end up in a battle with SP on steem when we end up with people who may end up with millions to spend on marketing or campaigns... I am telling you, all it takes is that right investor and steem can spread like wild fire... some wealthy people REALLY enjoy crypto and the whole key thing is just more fun for them!

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arthur.grafo (69) · 5 years ago (edited)

Reply to #knircky

Your comment was put forward by many of us when we were first asked about these changes. Those who make the decisions wasted our time, since they had no interest in listening to what the majority wish is; they married the naivety of coders to that of socialists and insisted curators (only) provide value, not the creators. As a matter of fact, if you can access those older posts, you will see discussions about the 50/50 not being fair to curators, but they cannot do it in one change as too many people will leave - so in the next HF they can change it to what it should be: 80% curators and 20% creators.

What is insulting is that we are told we , the creators, will earn more money because we are receiving a smaller slice of the pie. Listening to them, I felt like I was listening to the supremos of illogical logic, like certain leftist politicians in the USA.

I'll be honest, I've never drawn a cent to use outside Steemit; only drawn some smallish amounts to help Steemit charities and needy newcomers who could not post because of no SP. So I am not one of those who has been milking the system (which mostly the big accounts are doing, and that includes witnesses). Yet, because I do not agree with them, I am the enemy and they have already started flagging - not because of content, or scamming or plagiarising. No, just because I disagreed with them. That is a very strong signal and I cannot ignore it.

As a final point: We will become rich because our sP will become worth more, if Steem appreciates, not because of our SP growing in Steem size. So, if someone has 100 SP, they will become whales because Steem may become worth $8 each, but the SP will only stay at 100 or, if it grows, it will grow so slowly that we'll all be dead before we can enjoy the huge wealth it is supposed we will accumulate.

Nobody seems to have noticed that at least half or more of steemians are now on other Steem related platforms and as things get worse for them here, they will concentrate on using the ones where they are still able to express an opinion without being flagged, while also earning money.

Oh dear - did anyone notice the arrogant statement by #tytran ?

They can sell if they want now and waste their steem on a few dollars of food , when they could have held their savings.

So, needing food is an option we should not give in to, not if it means we can save for some future profits...which will be taken from us under some new HF...

por500bolos (68) · 5 years ago

As a matter of fact, if you can access those older posts

Oh no @arthur.grafo. You actually can access and read a good deal of those older posts and discussions summarized just doing click here. :)

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arthur.grafo4 (60) · 5 years ago

I have no problem accessing them, I use SteemWorld - but thanks.

Anyway, I would not want summarised copy - creating a summary means someone judges what should be shown and what can be thrown out. I prefer to see the original and make those decisions myself.

por500bolos (68) · 5 years ago

I prefer to see the original and make those decisions myself.

erm... by chance, did you even dare to click on the link offered to find out that all the 'originals' already comes inside?

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arthur.grafo (69) · 5 years ago

Then why tell me they are summaries? Summaries are NEVER the original, they are just what someone understood or his way of sorting out what they like or dislike.

As for daring...what the hell has that got to do with anything? My reason for not examining them is very clear - and you pretending it is not so, shows you are playing a game of your own, because facing the truth is not something you like to do.

PLUS, I mentioned a specific message exchanged between two people and my comment was meant to indicate I hope that person is able to find the old messages so as to see that I was not making it up, that it was actually said - so again, since I am claiming a certain something was said and suggesting that anyone who doubts it, that they return to read those messages...for some unintelligable reason, you immediately think you can play a power game by making me look ineffective and not daring to go view the message I spoke of?

All I can find in your messages is a certain large blank gap in your intellectual abilities - and it is such a pity you did not have the common sense to keep your mouth shut so that you do not expose your deficiency to the entire world.

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smooth (70) · 5 years ago

Creating content does not create value.

There is already a shit ton of content on this blockchain and how much value has been created?

In fact the value has rather declined by 99% and with it the ability to pay rewards to anyone regardless of whether or not these changes are made.

It is vital the we start directing rewards better toward realizable value creation. Not self-voting, and not content for content's sake. This hard fork is a step to aid the system in that direction, but cultural and behavioural changes are needed too.

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drutter (69) · 5 years ago

An empty blockchain is a clean and efficient blockchain!
Maybe next HF, they could completely remove all content-creation? Just to keep the place free of spam, of course.

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smooth (70) · 5 years ago

Better, value-adding content > no content.

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luegenbaron (64) · 5 years ago (edited)

3HaJVw3AYyXBBQkN3tCkhE2EjPPNPEEY7rZsT4k8E4aPBLjjU4T3hN4b4jQMDrkJW4bFBpk6VQNnCRorLpNycp7bgm1hTXPpNDBMdiE.png

3HaJVw3AYyXBBQkN3tCkhE2EjPPNPEEY7rZsT4k8E4aPBLjjU4T3hN4b4jQMDrkJW4bFBpk6VQNnCRpJdM2pMYt6mUW59Pwei3SxQgn.png

3HaJVw3AYyXBBQkN3tCkhE2EjPPNPEEY7rZsT4k8E4aPBLjjU4T3hN4b4jQMDrkJW4bFBpk6VQNnCRo9ayJPK92LMeg2k8gjnay8AfG.png

genious memes by @freebornangel

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13 votes

freebornangel (73) · 5 years ago

Aw, shucks,....thanks.

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luegenbaron (64) · 5 years ago

shucks?

Posted using Partiko Android

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https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/aw-shucks

freebornangel (73) · 5 years ago

American colloquialism.

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luegenbaron (64) · 5 years ago

I guess yo expect too much from me

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https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/colloquialism

freebornangel (73) · 5 years ago

Huh?

You are great, thanks for giving me the shout out.

You are doing better in english than I can in deutsch.

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luegenbaron (64) · 5 years ago (edited)

Ah yea, I just got it 10 seconds after I've sent the comment :D

Dachte nur das wäre schon wieder irgendein politischer Fachbegriff..^^

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sarez (64) · 5 years ago

I HAVE POSTED THIS REPLY AS IT IS- @luegenbaron

Sorry for not asking you first. But this is too good NOT to propogate-

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wholeself-in (57) · 5 years ago

I'm glad to see you explaining the basics of the hardfork in this format, something that was lacking before HF20.

I also noticed a surge in media coverage of Steem in anticipation of this - nice work!

@steemitblog, I'd like you to read and consider this post: https://steemit.com/@arseniclullaby/arsenic-lullaby-rant-everytime-these-guys-open-thier-mouths-the-price-of-steem-drops

Though it is lacking, um, tact, it tells of a serious missed opportunity when it comes to marketing Steem. Most users aren't that interested in nuts and bolts. We're interested in what people do on Steem. You don't have to be the mainstream to appeal to the mainstream, you just have to leverage those of us who are.

But don't take one of Steem's best content creators' word for it, take a lesson from those who focus on building communities rather than blockchains. Read 11 Rules for Creating Value in the Social Era by Nilofer Merchant or The Art of Community: Seven Principles for Belonging by Charles Vogl

This place has so much potential; let's do this!

Posted using Partiko Android

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loreshapergames (65) · 5 years ago

How exactly is the rewards curve changing? Some of us are averaging 5-6 STEEM on a good post, so it would kind of suck if smaller posters got pushed down. I know that there was talk about very small posts getting reduced payout. I'm concerned that this makes people who don't use bidbots get significantly less. I know there's talk about "well, this just impacts either end and leaves average users alone", but 20 STEEM per post does not seem to be an average user.

If you look at curation feeds like Curie, they're getting something like 9 STU, which might be 20 STEEM now but that's definitely not average.

OCD/Blocktrades gets people up to that threshold, but c-cubed does not.

Any of the smaller field-based curators (e.g. steemstem) just can't even hold a torch to 20 STEEM, if that's the break-even point.

Utopian gets good results, but they're not really a curation place.

If the shift is small, like 5% for people getting 3-8 STEEM, that's not atrocious. However, if that's a 25% decrease, those of us who rely solely on curation and initiatives like SBI for upvotes are going to really have to ask serious questions about whether we're getting anything for our efforts. Will we have to delegate to places like steem-ua or send our liquid STEEM off for upvotes from larger places so that we can hit the thresholds that keep our efforts worthwhile? That entirely defeats the point of an update intended to make curation better.

carloserp-2000 (68) · 5 years ago

@loreshapergames The biggest vote of steemstem generates an approximate of 18 steem or close to 20 steem, that is to say "it is not enough", taking into account the level of quality of the article that the author must reach to obtain that vote. It's almost impossible!

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loreshapergames (65) · 5 years ago

Exactly. It's nice, but it's not anything that's going to motivate serious work to be posted to Steem.

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stormkeepergu (45) · 5 years ago

Around 95%+ of my Steem posts I make are on other social media outlets I post as well; my statuses are the same across the board (posted on multiple platforms for increased visibility), whereas if it's a blog post, I post it all on here, then link to the blog post (on WordPress).

The remaining percentage of posts are exclusive to Steem, because they directly talk about in some way; I'm not overly motivated right now to make more posts exclusive to Steem, because - as was said before - if things don't happen after 7 days, then the window for earning potential from your is pretty much gone; visibility on the platform seems to be a bit tricky in many respects, especially for anyone like myself who has been here for less than a year.

I've received a fair few likes on my posts, but barely any comments, and I'm lucky to see even 0.001 STEEM on a post that reaches double digits. I've been starting to use the Tribes feature over the past week, seeing as it (hopefully) will increase my visibility somewhat, but also so I'm able to get some sort of reward (via tokens) for my posts, as in terms of STEEM, it's very easy for me to get nothing at all, even if the upvotes on my post reach the lower side of double figures (between 10-20 upvotes), I have a very strong chance of getting nothing for the time I put in! Not only that, it's very hard to know if there's interest in my posts or not, because I don't generally get many interactions other than upvotes.

This hard fork makes me wonder how people in a similar position to me (or lower), as well as those who are modestly above me will fare, because it really does seem like unless you're earning 20+ Steem, it's going to become a bit trickier to earn even the lowest denomination of it!

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julescape (56) · 5 years ago

I'm in a similar boat, i don't get more than a few cents if any at all, on each post. One or two comments at most. It is a feeble existence, which may become more feeble as far as earning goes. Perhaps commenting and upvoting more will help?

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lebastion (55) · 5 years ago

Totally agree

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thepen (46) · 5 years ago

At the moment, you are barely visible... Soon you are going to disappear off the radar completely.

The message of HF21 is Steemit doesn't want new users.

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stormkeepergu (45) · 5 years ago

It seems so... but without new users, the value of STEEM could really go down further, and things would end up stagnating as a result because it's generally going to be the same accounts, especially after others leave!

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steemdevelopment (55) · 5 years ago

People who use bid bots are likely to go down. Because unless the bots lower the cost of votes, it's not worth taking a 15% hit on every bid you make. Because now you have to share half with curators. You're more likely to powerup and self vote or vote on others content. In theory.

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loreshapergames (65) · 5 years ago

My question is this, though:

Why do bid-bots not just decrease their overhead? Once they have the liquid STEEM they convert it into SP, and the money that other people could have had by curating they receive instead.

This still does nothing to address the concerns with small content creators. How the hell do I get writer friends onto Steem when I know that they're likely to get cents on a dollar compared to what they do elsewhere and the big dogs are going to be the ones getting everything? With a week to get attention to your posts and get them up-voted before they lose value, there's no reason to post evergreen content on Steem when it could fare better elsewhere.

The only reason I'm here is because I wanted to make games and distribute them for free, and Steem seemed like a way to monetize that. Ultimately, I think that's been an absolute failure, in part due to how Steem's been faring on price (I don't believe Steemit has much control over this), but in part because the whole system is weighted toward people who have patrons.

The only reason I'm still around is for the community, but since Steem doesn't really have social features it's limited in that regard because most of the people I'm still sticking around to hang out with I'm interacting with on other platforms.

I think I speak for a lot of us who have left the platform when I say that we're demoralized and we don't have much faith in the system as it stands. To have changes that could seriously hurt people who are trying to claw their way up doesn't make sense. What portion of posts making 20 STEEM right now have done so on their own merits, versus being economically fueled?

The promise of Steem as a platform was that it would be a path to independence, and right now I don't think it's offering that to very many people. There are maybe less than a hundred people who could claim that Steem is anything more than a passion project or pipe dream for them. The nice thing about the linear system is that it's fair. I can see using a curve to weed out dust, especially if it's proven that a lot of very low value posts are bot activity instead of authentic engagement, but I'm not sold on HF 21 doing that.

freebornangel (73) · 5 years ago

Steem got hijacked a few years ago, all promises were changed.
Now thy have different goals in mind.
We get to like that, or lump it.

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baah (61) · 5 years ago

How the hell do I get writer friends onto Steem when I know that they're likely to get cents on a dollar compared to what they do elsewhere

Where else exactly?

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loreshapergames (65) · 5 years ago

YouTube or personal blogs with ads or writing churn for blogs that pay $10 a piece.

It's not glamorous, and you sacrifice a lot of your independence, but it pays better than Steem does right now and there's more likelihood of exposure outside the network of Steem users.

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baah (61) · 5 years ago

Now you can't tell me that your "writer" friends make even one cent from writing on YouTube, and personal blogs might net something like 10 bucks every 3 months, if they're good. Which blogs pay 10 bucks a piece for "churn" exactly?

Steem articles have more exposure than just about every blog out there since Steem is not a closed system by any means and everyone can consume the content without any kind of barrier, like paywalls or membership, and to top it all off steem articles dominate search results based on the sheer volume of content and the numerous web sites that link directly to steemit or other frontends.

I don't buy the "you make more on YouTube" or "elsewhere" at all, you know what it seems like: foot in mouth.

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loreshapergames (65) · 5 years ago

Have you ever worked as a writer?

With things like Patreon tied to another content creation service, people make way more than people make on Steem. Ads suck, but between ads and affiliate links you can do okay.

Also, you'd be surprised how many blogs have outsourced writing. Any small news site is going to be paying writers, as are a ton of company and media sites. $10 is the starving college kid pay, too. You can make more if you really get an audience.

Also, you can't eat off of exposure. I don't even know that you're correct about how well Steem draws traffic, because it's impossible to tell the reader/upvote ratio, but I actually suspect that I generally have a smaller readership than upvotes due to bots that are trying to snipe curation rewards and curation trails. Steem links may get some search results. Even then, after seven days your benefit for any content you've posted is gone (and I know there are ways to work around this, but they're not super user-friendly).

Steem's promise was as a way to achieve independence.

I've earned more in five hours of freelance writing than I've earned for several hundred posts on Steem (I've invested money in Steem too, though I always bought super low so I'm not in pain due to the low value).

Now, that's exceptional because it was a twenty-cents-a-word situation, which is basically the skies opening up and raining money, but I could be pulling down a lot more money off Steem than on. The only reason I'm here is for the freedom, and I'm not even sure that's worth it.

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baah (61) · 5 years ago

With things like Patreon tied to another content creation service, people make way more than people make on Steem.

Which people and how many out of every potential thousand do that? You're saying that people make more "writing" for YouTube through their Pateron link than people make on steem but avoiding the facts: how many people do that, how competitive is it. All these blogs and content media web sites that pay their writers but which combined haven't a chance to compete with the ammount of money steem has paid content creators or the number of content creators that got paid and keep getting paid.

baah (61) · 5 years ago

Steem's promise was as a way to achieve independence.

I seen so many things people claimed that "steem" promised them that the accompanied eye rolls are instinctual by now whenever I read such things.

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thepen (46) · 5 years ago

With things like Patreon...

BAT Tipping Jars are going to replace services like Patreon due to greatly decreased fees and ability to tip lower amounts. A 1 BAT tip results in a 0.95 BAT deposit into a Brave Creator Wallet.... Currently 1 BAT is about $0.20

Right now, BAT tipping is active on Twitter, Reddit, Youtube, and a growing number of social media platforms. It's not too inconceivable that in the very near future, a content creator will be able to post on Platform Whatever and receive rewards into a single location... a BAT Wallet (currently on Uphold)...

Some BAT nice graphics

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fervi (66) · 5 years ago (edited)

https://zapread.com
https://publish0x.com
Probably medium.com

Some alternatives for Steem

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https://www.zapread.com/Home/About

baah (61) · 5 years ago

Total Satoshi spent, try not to laugh at what a failure the donate model is, and calling it donate model is a stretch since a large portion doesn't even go to the author.

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fervi (66) · 5 years ago (edited)

try not to laugh at what a failure the donate model is, and calling it donate model is a stretch since a large portion doesn't even go to the author.

Same model as Steem, only hidden.
// You get 1 Steem

"Cool, can I buy Bitcoins for this?"
Sure!
The exchange!
Cool, Steemit pays me dollars.
// But wait, Steem doesn't pay in dollars / BTC, Steem pays in tokens. Who pays in dollars / BTC? Investors ...

Steem is a network worse than ZapRead, Publish0x, but without a system based on game theory. The fact that you can't see it means that the system is hiding it perfectly.

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baah (61) · 5 years ago (edited)

It's not the same model by any means, but nice try at asserting that a donation based system is the same as a stake based system.

// You get 1 Steem

"Cool, can I buy Bitcoins for this?"
Sure!
The exchange!
Cool, Steemit pays me dollars.
// But wait, Steem doesn't pay in dollars / BTC, Steem pays in tokens. Who pays in dollars / BTC? Investors ...

It does not matter what it's paid in, it's irrelevant squared, what matters is how it has value and why it maintains it. In a donation system the entire value rests on people spending money/giving money, on a stake based system the entire value rests on people staking more than extracting. If they staked dollars it would be no different, same for bitcoin or any other token/store of value.

Steem is a network worse than ZapRead, Publish0x, but without a system based on game theory.

The system isn't based on game theory, at best it utilizes incentive structures based on game theory, it's based on cryptocurrency communities and social media. The "fact" that you think donating money is no different from staking money means you haven't a clue as to distinguish between a zero sum game and a cooperative, everyone-wins game.

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Show 27 more replies

baah (61) · 5 years ago

Worse than those oddities that have nothing to do with steem what so ever? Sure.

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baah (61) · 5 years ago (edited)

The other one is even more hilarious :
The distribution wallet which includes all their "sponsored" authors cash outs:
https://etherscan.io/address/0xF9879bB3230f86fFCebcA652C5FB6Ec4504309be#analytics

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viking-ventures (69) · 5 years ago

Exactly my points!
I get regular Curie upvotes - evidently, my content is of high-enough quality to warrant it. :-)
Between those Curies, I'm lucky if I get 1 SBD per post. (I see SBD, not Steem so much - I think many others are like that too.) It's a far cry from 20 Steem!!! (Except once per fortnight - the minimum time between curie upvotes.)

I'm glad to see curation getting attention - this is a GREAT thing!!!
But I'm one of the creators (because I need to create), and we need to reward high-quality content to convince creators to stay in Steem if we're to see Steem, as a blockchain, thrive.

I suspect the thresh-hold is way too high. As is said here by @loreshapergames, a smaller shift for lower levels (3-8 steem isn't unreasonable), it would be a much more manageable change for those of us who make up the majority (vast majority) of quality content creators for Steem.

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smooth (70) · 5 years ago

How exactly is the rewards curve changing?

There is a link in the original post which answers this question.

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pibara (60) · 5 years ago

The big unanswered question:

Did you guys fix the dust-level treshold for the HF?

rycharde (63) · 5 years ago

Great question - made me laugh, though.

One of the biggest consequences of Hf21 that the chainlords have forgotten to mention is that comments work just like posts... therefore voting on comments is a guaranteed waste of voting power. So much for "social".

pibara (60) · 5 years ago

Oops, just threw away an other $0.03 vote, that used to be a $0.06 vote before the market rejection of HF21 by the markets, and will be a $0.00 vote ;-)

Before Steemit Inc anounced the EIP was to be part of HF21, you needed a bit over 1k SP at 100% to reward a comment above the dust treshold. After all of HF21 comes together, you will possibly need closer to 10k SP if earlier claims about the chosen curve turn out to be correct.

I hope, despite zero communication on the subject, they fixed the dust treshold for HF21. If they didn't, I think moving more stake (and social interaction) to #creativecoin will be my best option.

If more below 10k SP accounts will do similar, this little oversight by Steemit Inc might turn out to be the cause of an even lower value for STEEM. So, maybe if the social argument doesn't make a lot of difference to the chainlords, maybe minnows and dolphins voting with their feet and moving stake to scot tribes will.

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aaliyahholt (68) · 5 years ago

This HF is the worst. The rewards. It says posts under 20 Steem get less rewards. This is going to HURT users who can't earn 20 Steem on their posts.

Next, people can flag without draining their VP. This will give flag bullies a reason to flag innocent people taking away hard working creator's hard-earned money.

uyobong (71) · 5 years ago

This is a beautiful development for the entire blockchain. With these, we are expecting more investors as curators would have a better probability for ROI. Thanks to the Steemit Team and our witnesses for considering this.

Better days are ahead surely!

michealb (66) · 5 years ago

Cool. Hurry up :)

frankvvv (65) · 5 years ago

Please no :(

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michealb (66) · 5 years ago

how you going frankvvv?

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frankvvv (65) · 5 years ago

So, so. Most of my other cryptos are doing better than Steem :)

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jenina619 (69) · 5 years ago

So the rich get richer and the poor get poorer...sad :(

Posted using Partiko Android

andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago

This is not true. These changes are designed to ensure that good content is more likely to earn more rewards and good curators are more likely to earn more curation rewards. That means that if you're a good content creator, the odds are that your good posts will earn more rewards. It also means that if someone who is just posting low-value posts and self-upvoting them, or using fake accounts to upvote them, they will be much less likely to earn much from that activity. They will also be more likely to earn a downvote now that everyone is getting some free downvotes. This will free up rewards that are being distributed to malicious users who are exploiting the system just so they can cash out, and make those rewards available to good content creators. These changes only impact the rewards pool, which is not distributed based on wealth except when people render self-votes. But these changes are specifically targeted at making self-votes LESS profitable and easier to police. So, in fact, the result should be the exact opposite of "the rich getting richer."

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quantumdeveloper (57) · 5 years ago

That means that if you're a good content creator, the odds are that your good posts will earn more rewards.

It's not only about creating good content. Take a look at the trendings. There are many low-quality posts. On the other hand there are also many high quality posts outside of trending.

Also in the non-mainstream categories even the best content creators will struggle to reach 20 steem.

jenina619 (69) · 5 years ago

Very good explanation, thanks! Now it makes sense to me, hope this will succeed for good creators

Posted using Partiko Android

andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago

My pleasure. I understand it's all very confusing. Unfortunately, when you're dealing with such a complex system, nothing is simple.

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fervi (66) · 5 years ago

And whose fault is it that instead of creating a simple system, you created a mammoth?

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smooth (70) · 5 years ago

The idea is to make things as simple as possible, but no simpler.

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mobbs (69) · 5 years ago (edited)

It seems to me that for us, a curation team who has spent years not being appreciated for thousands of hours of collective, voluntary work, can vote mostly below the 20 steem threshold despite having numerous high-end supporters and delegators (gtg, curie etc). This means that what we could argue as one of the highest quality sub-cultures on the platform, with a focus on STEM content, run by legitimately qualified scientists and academics and a dedicated team painstakingly quantifying quality and filtering plagiarism, can now, after years of effort, give its authors 57% less than they were getting.

Is this inaccurate?

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s3rg3 (67) · 5 years ago

Can you leverage on what is the definition of ‘good content’, a ‘good content creator’& a ‘good curator‘? And what does this HF21 have in place to stop the so called circle jerking where High value accounts keep upvoting every single ‘good quality’ post of their friends? What will the incentive be for beginners or low value accounts on this platform?

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pundito (65) · 5 years ago

I'm afraid the answer to most of the questions above is: nothing
Can't wait for other "creative" answers on these questions.

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georgeknowsall (48) · 5 years ago

be honest these changes are to reward the big fish so they can make more before steem becomes worthless

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raycoms (70) · 5 years ago

The big fish have so much stake in this network, they would lose the most if it were to become worthless

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hippie-witha-gun (62) · 5 years ago

I'm only sticking around for the free speech outlet. I really don't expect to ever see the day that I start making any real money using Steemit. Congrats to those who got in early 3 years ago and made money.

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joeyarnoldvn (61) · 5 years ago

Agreed.

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healthexpert (70) · 5 years ago

@andrachy what happen to those who are getting rewarded by steemhunt . steemhunt give 1.20$ reward it means all this reward will be burn and author will get very less , it is against the author hardwork and This is not a so called social media that pay , Even no one on steemit upvote without paying him/her a money for upvote . So The big whales will start selling more upvote for poors who get less reward on post and want to avoid extra deduction

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pibara (60) · 5 years ago

Its also designed so that people are incentivized to use bid bots to beat the curve. It is designed to discourage social interaction. To drive minnows and dolphins to move their stake to scot tribes. This whole HF is one big gamle that can blow up in our faces in more ways than one. The markets are clearly rejecting HF21, but what do the markets know , right? Or people who actually ran simulations to predict initial outcomes and incentives that favor an increased bid bot economy. Well, steem has been amazing while it lasted. Hope Steemit won't destroy the scot tribes in HF22, because thats where most minnows, dolphins and content creators will be hiding out after HF21.

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apolymask (67) · 5 years ago

Based on your response it seems like in order to try to combat the smaller fish who are trying to game the system you're enriching the bigger fish who are gaming the system more...?

I've been here for years and I haven't had any posts make 20 steem or more since the value of steem was much higher... Not saying my content is amazing either, but... It seems like the majority of posts that make 20 steem or more are because of bidbot use or because of being in the "in" crowd and have nothing to do with quality.

I think in the end, the majority of users who see this who are not "big fish" will probably not like that they are making less and that those who are well established are making more. I think it feels like a slap in the face to many people, myself included and I rarely get into the politics of steem anymore, but.. This just seems wrong on many levels.

If the value of steem were higher this probably wouldn't be as big of an issue, though it seems like doing this when the value of steem is so low is only likely to make the value of steem itself go even lower as the smaller users feel less welcome here as a result.

I could be wrong, but that's how this feels and it seems like a lot of other people feel similar.

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irvinesimages (65) · 5 years ago

This is very disheartening and makes me feel empty inside, I have to question my own viability. Bid bots are not an option for me because I live my life with honesty and integrity, I would rather quit than be a part of this bid-bot bullshit, it's as phony as the day is long. I see steemit walking towards a cliff with a blindfold on trying to pin the tail on a donkey, good luck with that. Irreversible mistakes are the downfall of many in history. I would not be surprised if many lower echelon users catch a ride out on the dolphin and minnow express.

old-guy-photos (73) · 5 years ago

Well put.

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irvinesimages (65) · 5 years ago

I'm a loyal hard working contributor to steemit. I have always avoided saying anything that would cause conflict, but in light of this new development, I felt compelled to express my opinion. Thanks for your acceptance.

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markkujantunen (74) · 5 years ago

See you on Instagram!

Posted using Partiko iOS

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irvinesimages (65) · 5 years ago (edited)

Sorry I'm not involved in Instagram, however if you would like to talk, please comment on my blog. Thank you.

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aaliyahholt (68) · 5 years ago

What is 'good quality' content in your book?

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deeanndmathews (66) · 5 years ago

It would be helpful if you would edit your main post and include some of this explanation. All over Steemit, this part of your message is neither being heard nor believed -- yet it must be clearly heard first.

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markkujantunen (74) · 5 years ago

Curating manually will become more rewarding financially relative to delegating to bid bots. Hopefully that will lead to a higher price of Steem because of better content being rewarded more than before.

jenina619 (69) · 5 years ago

You're right!

Posted using Partiko Android

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markkujantunen (74) · 5 years ago

I hope so.

Posted using Partiko iOS

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frankvvv (65) · 5 years ago

How so? We will have to pay bots to get to the 20 Steem.

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thepen (46) · 5 years ago

Curating manually

This is work. Work is to be avoided. Thus the bid bots exist.

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markkujantunen (74) · 5 years ago

Bid bots exist primarily for better return on investment. Auto-voting for optimal timing will be much more profitable now. But it takes finding content that is not yet curated by too many frontrunners.

Posted using Partiko iOS

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drutter (69) · 5 years ago

Listen to the rich insiders when they tell you: "This is NOT about the rich getting richer! You just need to try harder and put out better content."

9 votes

julescape (56) · 5 years ago

Good point, it's not about quality of content any more. Some good posts simply get ignored.

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mcoinz79 (70) · 5 years ago

Yup. Have a !BEER 🍺

Posted using Partiko iOS

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beerlover (62) · 5 years ago

^{To view or trade BEER go to steem-engine.com.}

Hey @jenina619, here is your BEER token. Enjoy it!

Do you already know our BEER Crowdfunding

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stackin (78) · 5 years ago

Don’t worry, I’ll give you upvotes 🤣😅

Posted using Partiko iOS

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jenina619 (69) · 5 years ago

Ahah I'll give you a surprise soon🤡💥🎈 lol

Posted using Partiko Android

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joeyarnoldvn (61) · 5 years ago

It is like a funnel extension which has the potential of bringing more money to content creators by giving more the curators which then leads to content creators getting more money overall.

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msg768 (65) · 5 years ago (edited)

But what if the rich decides to dump their steem and go chase a cryptocurrency that yields more profit than steem? Then everyone would become poor! :)

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netuoso (70) · 5 years ago

This is a "survival guide" about as much as telling someone to "watch out for dangers in the jungle".

There is nothing in here about how to survive under the coming rules. No suggestions for authors/curators on how to benefit from the changes. No discussions about WHY a downvote pool needed to be added.

This was more like a small pamphlet you get at the grocery store with 3 pages but 2 of them have pictures or a list of sponsors. That is to say I felt let down as far as a "guide" for what to expect during the coming HF.

11 votes

pibara (60) · 5 years ago

Maybe:

If you are an orca or whale: good times, cheap delegations.
minnow or dolphin: move that stake to your favorite scot tribe, it will be worth much more there, or delegate it to bid bots.
If you are a redfish: don't bother commenting on anything. Just create good posts and use bid bots like crazy.

thepen (46) · 5 years ago

If you are a redfish: don't bother commenting on anything.

But what if we like commenting? Then what?

use bid bots like crazy.

I thought bid bots were going to be going away because of the decreased financial rewards for using them.

Therefore, the only logically conclusion is:

Steemit doesn't want new users... especially ones that would like to discuss anything whatsoever via this Social Platform.

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pibara (60) · 5 years ago

Most of the most socially active accounts that currently reward their red fish commenters with a single above dust level treshold up-vote for their comments won't be able to anymore. So redfish who currently bring value to the platform by bringing social interaction to the posts of minnows and dolphins, no longer will get "any" growth from doing so. The easy fix (decreasing dust level from 0.02 to 0.002) doesn't seem to be on the table, but the lack of this fix does have the potential to make HF21 a platform killer. It may not seem like much in terms of solar value, but it is massive in terms of social value.

As for bid bots. The bid not ecconomy is going to boom. Stake is worth substantially less for small account than the same stake is for larger accounts because of the curve. This will stimulate minnows and dolphins to delegate their stake. Bid not owners will be able to cheaply rent SP, and on the demand side, with increased curator share for bid not owners, the price for bid not usage will go down to match the compensate for lower ROI, allowing bid not users to use buy larger upvotes for the same bid. Larger bids will be needed, as users will try to beat the curve with the upvotes they buy. New accounts that currently use bid bots will be forced to, because with the new curve and the dust treshold in place, it will be the only way to even exceed dust treshold for such accounts.

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acidyo (80) · 5 years ago

huehue they changed the title so now you just look stoopid! #trolled #rekt #420noscope

but ye that was a pretty bad title

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anthonyadavisii (70) · 5 years ago

Posted using Partiko Android

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netuoso (70) · 5 years ago

Sorry I don't do this stoopid

acidyo (80) · 5 years ago

Roode :(

freebornangel (73) · 5 years ago

You have been memory holed,...

The original title is still in the link.

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sayee (66) · 5 years ago

What a good example of the brochure. I feel that this will not mean well for new members and will also let down third world citizens like me. Sigh

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drutter (69) · 5 years ago

"..posts that would make more than 20 STEEM under the old rules to earn more after the changes. Those posts that would have made less than 20 STEEM under the old rules will receive less.."

aka rich get richer and poor get poorer

"..changed from 75/25 split currently, to a 50/50 split between author and curator.."

So, less for content-creators, more for curators with a lot of money... aka rich get richer and poor get poorer

The insiders have voted themselves another big raise, as the last of the content-creators finally get choked out and chased off.

freebornangel (73) · 5 years ago

Somebody better stand up and flag the crap out of treending, or the next giant sucking sound you hear will be the minnows as they exit stage left.

Our curation rewards going from .002 to .004 is not going to offset a 40% drop in author rewards.
We will know the first week of september if we need to just let the haves have it all.
They can have 100% of a coin nobody wants.

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mcoinz79 (70) · 5 years ago

Survival guide? Hope we don’t lose 5 days like last time

pibara (60) · 5 years ago

Maybe do some pre-emptive upvoting just in case.

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aaliyahholt (68) · 5 years ago

That's what I'm doing.

Posted using Partiko Android

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karenb54 (73) · 5 years ago

I earn less than 20 steem per post, don't like the idea i will be earning less :(

9 votes

drutter (69) · 5 years ago

I guess your options are to try harder, buy votes, or accept the loss.

$0.05

11 votes

hempy (53) · 5 years ago

Yup! Those are basically the options for most of us. I will probably have no option but to accept the loss.

karenb54 (73) · 5 years ago

Thank you for your suggestions. Ive been here for 3 years, i work hard enough in here and will not buy votes. You forgot 1... stop trying..

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raycoms (70) · 5 years ago

Especially someone like you should benefit from the higher manual curation in this system and that people with shitposts buying votes will now lose their money due to flags.

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karenb54 (73) · 5 years ago

I am seen a lot of hardforks on here. The only members i ever see win are always the whales.

raycoms (70) · 5 years ago

The whales won before those hardforks, after them, are winning right now and will win afterwards. I think there is not much we can do to solve this right now. But, I believe that this hardfork will be worse for abusers and shit posters. This means more rewards should be left over for the good authors

karenb54 (73) · 5 years ago

Im not going to stop trying. Put over 3 years in to this and love the members. The members are a big reason why i am still here :)

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frankvvv (65) · 5 years ago

No, the 'pro shit posters' will just use MORE bid bots.

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raycoms (70) · 5 years ago

Awesome, I'm going to flag all of them and they'll lose money. Even better. And the bidbots will lose the curation (also money). That's a win-win for me.

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haikubot (54) · 5 years ago

I guess your options
Are to try harder, buy votes,
Or accept the loss.

^{- drutter}

^{^{I'm a bot. I detect haiku.}}

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stormkeepergu (45) · 5 years ago

Yeah, that "earning less" thing is going to be a sticking point with a lot of folks that are new or relatively new to the platform, or just are much smaller in size; I haven't earned a lot on my posts either, so I can understand your position as well, though equally, I've been on here less than a year!

Earning less does slow down my plans to bring another account (with a completely different set of topics) onto here, so it definitely makes me think about things a lot more as well!

karenb54 (73) · 5 years ago

I agree with you, if i am going to be earning less then why should i keep trying as hard as i have been for the last 3 years.

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stormkeepergu (45) · 5 years ago

As I said earlier, it makes me glad that most of my posts are crossposted elsewhere, because I'd have to write those posts anyway; the extra few minutes to copy-paste (and adjust the text for the platform) isn't really going to bend me out of shape, as it's just a few minutes extra, considering I could have spent up to an hour typing up text anyway; I generally use Steemit as the editing medium, as it's the only social platform (except for Golos, which I can't login to atm, and also WordPress) where I have to put the tags in a different section, as opposed to the main body of text, so it makes sense to start it there, then modify it to go elsewhere!

Either way, I'm not looking forward to seeing my loss, but I'll definitely be making use of the tribes where appropriate, as even if I don't get STEEM, I can at least get some tokens as some form of compensation, although I am constantly earning SNAX via activity on here and on Twitter, but I don't know how to make them work for me yet, and I'm trying to save up to get another account on here related to completely different topics; I'm not sure if I'll ultimately bring the account on here (especially as I have a long way to go to reach the threshold for making a new account), but I'll continue to save regardless, where possible!

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karenb54 (73) · 5 years ago

Sounds like you are on top of this, I haven't got a clue what will happen and what those other tokens etc are, I have managed to drag myself through 20 hardforks and 3 hard years but unfortunatly for someone who has no clue i don't know what will happen with my account :(

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stormkeepergu (45) · 5 years ago

I'm somewhat on top of it, but I guess the fact I don't exclusively rely upon this platform for social media posts does help things in some respects, although right now, this platform, via its cryptocurrencies and tokens is the only consistent way I'm earning anything at all under this namespace, except for the very occasional Twitch subscription or bits, of which I haven't had much of recently, so, for now, this platform is actually my main source of "income" in terms of any content I create under this name.

I haven't even been here a year yet, but it does seem very tricky for anyone under a certain point to be visible on this platform, and in conjunction with those getting 20+ STU on their posts getting more, and those below that getting less than they did before, it's definitely going to hit the smaller posters quite a bit, but equally, we won't know how things will start to go at least till a month after the fork, but also, we need to see what happens over the remainder of the year; for now, I just have plans to get parity of posts with my Steepshot and Instagram accounts, and that's happening regardless of how much STU, SNAX or other tokens I get, as I just want to make future photo posts easier to make!

Hopefully though, things will pan out for us, but we won't know properly for a few months yet! All that said, I'm actually monitoring a handful of my posts to see how the reward levels change between now and after the fork, though I suspect that it'll be a week after the fork happens that the changes will come into play, as I think that any posts made prior to when the fork actually occurs will be rewarded under the old system, and any posts made after the fork is implemented will come under the new system!

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karenb54 (73) · 5 years ago

We will just have to wait and see. Hopefully we will all gain if only a little. I'll keep an eye on your posts :)

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stormkeepergu (45) · 5 years ago

Yeah... here's hoping! And thank you :)

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real-info (74) · 5 years ago

Not sure what you talking about but

We invested half BTC a year ago in steem.
Daily making 4 posts, that means working 8 hours daily for Steemit.
Our current value is 0.07 BTC

Please tell
How much loss we have?
Anyway this hardfork going to help us?

msg768 (65) · 5 years ago (edited)

Don't worry. You're the not the only one who has lost so much for holding alts instead of bitcoin! This hard fork in my opinion should generally help the ecosystem but alts might continue to suffer as long as bitcoin continues to dominate the space. If you want my advice, don't give up on something you believe in. If you believe in steem, average down your costs by buying more cheap. If you don't, you can either write it off and hope you're wrong or take the 0.07 BTC now before you lose even more!

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real-info (74) · 5 years ago

Tragedy is that we are also working for fourteen months and daily posting in steemit.

Calculate the labour we have done in these fourteen months period.

We have seven times loss in terms of bitcoin.
We have three times loss in terms of USD.

Plus loss of labour costs of fourteen months.

Please guide if any way this hard fork going to help us ?

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drutter (69) · 5 years ago

I am in the same boat. I invested 0.2 Bitcoin 18 months ago, and have worked full time (with my wife and others), only to be reduced to 0.05 BTC in value.
Why have I paid SO much, to work SO hard, and produce SO much content for this blockchain, to lose SO much of my purchasing power?
While the insiders are giving themselves another raise?

msg768 (65) · 5 years ago (edited)

You shouldn't be posting here just for money imo. Just as people who post on Twitter or Facebook have never posted there for money. Being able to make some $$$ for your posts here should be seen as just a bonus over other platforms but you should never keep posting just for money. That's one of the problems many people have here and why there's so much spam. And the loss in BTC and USD as I said is not just with steem. All altcoins have suffered and continue to suffer. If you had bought anything, whether Litecoin or Dogecoin or really anything else, you would be in the same loss or even more. This fork will leverage curators by doubling their rewards. I think curators should be rewarded even more imo because technically 100% of the rewards belongs to them. They can just upvote themselves instead of your posts and take 100% of the rewards themselves which is what some have been doing or sell upvotes through bidbots which is again what many have been doing. This fork will make things better for curators but still won't be enough imo. I would like to see something like 75% curators vs. 25% authors. And I think that might as well happen further down the road.

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drutter (69) · 5 years ago (edited)

"you shouldn't post here just for money"
Notice that the front page of Steemit invites new users with "get paid for posting"?
And you're telling people they shouldn't expect money for their work here, heh.

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msg768 (65) · 5 years ago (edited)

I didn't say that. Read again. I said just for money. You conveniently removed just from my sentence to make me look like an idiot. If a platform wants to pay you for simply posting, that would be a pretty stupid platform that would invite nothing but spam. And the website doesn't say get paid for posting. It says get paid for good content. If you want people to pay you, you better create worthy content that would make them want to pay you. Because you get paid by curators, who are stakeholders, not by simply posting. If it's just about shit posting and/or making money, curators are better off self-upvoting or selling upvotes. Half the people crying for not getting paid for their content have never been creating content before and are only here for money. That factor alone cracks me up lol

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drutter (69) · 5 years ago

You tried to make him feel like he's unreasonable to expect to be paid.
He's not.

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msg768 (65) · 5 years ago (edited)

It's unreasonable to post JUST for money. That's called spamming. And there's no platform for it. Money doesn't grow on trees. You need to convince others to pay you for your service or content in this case. That's why it's called Proof-of-Brain mining.

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fishyculture (60) · 5 years ago

"Rewards
The rewards curve is changing. We expect posts that would make more than 20 STEEM under the old rules to earn more after the changes. Those posts that would have made less than 20 STEEM under the old rules will receive less after the changes."

Well, that will be the end of me even trying to create content. You all decided to help the whales get whalier and let the minnows drown? And you think this will help onboard more minnows? Interesting.

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nameless16 (60) · 5 years ago

I don't like the rule of a lower reward for what we get votes that don't generate 20 STEEM, I think it should be equitable for everyone and more for newcomers or for those of us who struggle to make quality articles in Spanish, as you may know we have few curators who can have a great voting power to generate a reward of more than 20 STEEM, I know this will mean leaving our comfort zone and looking for another way to generate more votes, but I think if you want new people to use steemit, then this rule does not seem to me to be the best.

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coinratecap (38) · 5 years ago

Thats great as long it doesnt affect market price negatively .

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pibara (60) · 5 years ago

It already did. The markets aren't sleeping. The current price, one third of the price prior to Steemit's announcement of EIP inclusion in HF21 is a clear rejection of HF21 by the markets.

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jeffjagoe (72) · 5 years ago

"We expect posts that would make more than 20 STEEM under the old rules to earn more after the changes. Those posts that would have made less than 20 STEEM under the old rules will receive less after the changes." --- well that is a turn off...

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jeffjagoe (72) · 5 years ago

Essentially... it sounds like a way to expand the wealth gap between whales and newcomers.

Posted using Partiko iOS

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frankvvv (65) · 5 years ago

Exactly! 20 Steem on a post is a lot. Let's not forget that right now, some people push their blog posts to that level with bots, only to get downvoted by some whale because "the post is not worth that much".

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wakeupkitty (75) · 5 years ago (edited)

You have a "nice" way of bringing the "good news" and fooling people. I like the introduction, explaining the hardcore etc.
I am not afraid it won't work smoothly or some problems will show up. If that happens I will blog somewhere else till it is solved.

What to expect.. The new rewarding

Many, no matter how good their content is, how much they engage and invest in Steem, their blogs will never make $20. This means they earn even less and the question rises: Is there a reason for them to invest in Steem? What makes it attractive to invest over 12 hours a day?
Reward split... You bring the news again as if this is something great a big WIN. Fact is it is not, it only is for you and the whales. Again I ask: what makes it interesting for the biggest, most active group to stay here and invest in Steem?

Also I hope you can answer this question:

What is a good reason to join Steem at all?
And please not the side of the investor but all of those who decided to give Steemit a chance, made it possible to grow and made publicity for it. Here, via Twitter, Facebook, etc etc.

Thank you in advance for your answer.
💕

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improv (67) · 5 years ago

Agree with you, but gotta point out that it's 20 steem, not $20. So, like $4.

Posted using Partiko Android

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wakeupkitty (75) · 5 years ago

Okay well the S$.. Still a lot to many most of my posts do not even reach q which means I have the worse content here

Posted using Partiko Android

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improv (67) · 5 years ago (edited)

Absolutely think it's a problem!

Essentially, they're changing the platform to discourage the content I like in favor of rewarding the content that bores me.

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wakeupkitty (75) · 5 years ago

I already figured that out too. If I see what is according to @steemitblog good content it is the kind I am not interested in.

If there is a better place I like to hear it.
💕

Posted using Partiko Android

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zoef (64) · 5 years ago

Wow

So the people that are earning scraps will now earn nearly nothing. While the big earners will be earning even more. Great way of atracting new users.

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cosmophobia (67) · 5 years ago

@steemitblog
I choose to Live positive work positive and stay positive. Thank you for your article, gracias amigo.

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bitbrain (63) · 5 years ago

...which is exactly the kind of attitude that allows tyrants to do as they please! I choose to complain bitterly and to fight injustice tooth and claw!

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rycharde (63) · 5 years ago

Well said! altho the name cosmophobia is hardly positive. looks like a template comment anyway.

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acidyo (80) · 5 years ago

HF: 21 Savage

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luegenbaron (64) · 5 years ago

haha youre also chilling here :D

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bitbrain (63) · 5 years ago

Oh for crying out loud! POST QUALITY is not measured by the amount of the POST PAYOUT! All that measures is populist behaviour between whales!

This is a death sentence to already impoverished minnows like myself, who churn out quality content by the bucketload, but can never hope to compete with the circular-upvoting strategies of the whales:

" We expect posts that would make more than 20 STEEM under the old rules to earn more after the changes. Those posts that would have made less than 20 STEEM under the old rules will receive less after the changes."

Do you guys even know the first thing about the principles upon which crypto is built? How the HELL does "make the rich richer and the poor poorer" sound like a good idea to you? I might as well stick to bloody fiat!

SHOCKINGLY POOR DECISION!

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shelbi (56) · 5 years ago

Yes, a poor decision. I have to wonder how The platform as a whole expects to benefit ??

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bitbrain (63) · 5 years ago

When things like this happen, I am reminded of how my (highly corrupt) government works. They claim to serve "the people", yet serve only themselves. This does NOT bode well for STEEM! Busy dumping my liquid STEEM as we speak.

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rycharde (63) · 5 years ago

Putting the central back into decentral; the next step is already being planned, I believe.

Do people ever voice their concerns during the propaganda period? Always too late for something that could be figured out mathematically.

The last part not aimed at you in particular, just airing the disappointment of people reacting too late - as always.

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bitbrain (63) · 5 years ago

The problem with the propaganda period is always that the voices of reason are shouted down by the voices of the manipulated masses.

"There was no point in seeking to convert the intellectuals. For intellectuals would never be converted and would anyway always yield to the stronger, and this will always be "the man in the street." Arguments must therefore be crude, clear and forcible, and appeal to emotions and instincts, not the intellect. Truth was unimportant and entirely subordinate to tactics and psychology." ~ Joseph Goebbels

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improv (67) · 5 years ago

That curve is just terrible for my community. I can count on one hand the number of non-botted posts I've seen get more than 20 steem. I thought this HF was supposed to help curb bot usage, not make it a necessary evil.

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rycharde (63) · 5 years ago

But this was announced weeks ago and it just took a bit of analysis to figure that the reality was never going to match the propaganda.

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improv (67) · 5 years ago

Yes. I've been trying to get witnesses who oppose it in the top twenty for all of those weeks. It's still not too late. (I mean it's not going to work, but it isn't too late) @tcpolymath is a good witness-voting proxy for anyone who wants to oppose hf21

Posted using Partiko Android

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xplosive (62) · 5 years ago

"The rewards curve is changing. We expect posts that would make more than 20 STEEM under the old rules to earn more after the changes. Those posts that would have made less than 20 STEEM under the old rules will receive less after the changes."

20 Steem per post!? Most of the people could not even made 2 Steem with their posts. Many people can't even make 1 Steem with most of their posts.
The few rich gets richer, the poor majority gets poorer.
I was hopeful and optimistic about the HardFork 21 so far, but after the above quoted expectations, I have different feelings and opinions about HardFork 21.

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rycharde (63) · 5 years ago

Why were you optimistic? This was obvious. Look around at those very few people left who attempt to write honestly about this blockchain.

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xplosive (62) · 5 years ago

To be honest, I expected something from HardFork 21 to reduce the number of content creators, and increase the number of curators, but not this way/not like this. This will be good probably only for the whales, and maybe for the dolphins. By doing this, they will probably reduce both the number of content creators and the number of curators as well. Basically the number of active users, which is already low and getting lower and lower nowadays almost every day.

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rycharde (63) · 5 years ago

Yes, I think they are being encouraged to move into tribes/communities. So long as their voting activity remains in rshares/steem and is not wholly in tokens, then that may not be so bad, but I don't see many tribe-tokens able to fully hold on to their value.

And yes, blockchain activity as measured by the reward pool has been dropping quite sharply for the last 2 weeks.

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luca1777 (60) · 5 years ago

So, i can choose if i want the new "update" on August 27th?
And the old model runs parallel with the new one?
Doesn't this policy create a whole lotta >20Steem content
"ass lickers" (excuse my language), instead of "pushing"
the small accounts to create for themselves?
Like this you don't reward content quality automatically,
like this you reward big accounts...
Hmmm..? I don't know...

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blocktrades (74) · 5 years ago

The old model will not run in parallel unless someone decides to fork the blockchain and run the old code. All top witnesses have signaled they plan to run the new code.

sgt-dan (61) · 5 years ago

Personally I believe it is just a matter of when a forking of the blockchain will happen. I am a firm believer in folks doing whatever they want with their stake in STEEM even if they take it and run. Not too long ago there were veiled threats along these lines by a number of witnesses.

The elephant in the room is ethical behavior. I have been on this platform for two years now. I base my views on the behavior of those on this platform. Like many, I have opinions which change from time to time based on the more I learn. I have seen extortion, bribery, and just plain nastiness.

Why people do what they do? I don't know, yet I have seen some very bad actors on this platform from Whales down to Redfish. Some may see me as a bad actor as well, it is all about perception.

No one on this platform has all the answers. I have seen those that cry, Reward Pool Rape and yet their behavior does exactly that, through self-upvotes on their own comments and such. @jerrybanfield actually made an educational video some time back exactly how to effectively rape the reward pool through the use of sockpuppet accounts.

Decentralized? Technically, yes. In practice no. This has never been a decentralized platform in the truest sense. It is an oligarchy (like the majority of social constructs), period. Not a democracy.

Their will be a fork in the near future. I am sure of it. The foundations are being laid as we comment here. Do I have an answer? No, as I am just an imperfect person with limited intellect. I do have some suggestions though...

Mute spammers
Boycott bidbots
Stake Steem
Pay attention to witnesses and vote
Align with those that share our sense of ethical behavior

We shall see what this HF brings. There are other options out there and many of us have gone there (remember the Exodus to WEKU during HF20?).

Maybe the impending fork will be called STEEM Cash. 🤣

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drakernoise (60) · 5 years ago

Amen! 👍

luca1777 (60) · 5 years ago

Ok, got it.
Could you please have a look at this:
https://steemit.com/steemit/@luca1777/blocktrades-is-this-request-consent-normal
This happened the last time i wanted to buy SP...
Attack?

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blocktrades (74) · 5 years ago

Sure, I replied on the post.

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luca1777 (60) · 5 years ago

Thank you, if everything is fixed now i will
try it soon.

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lebastion (55) · 5 years ago

I think i will remove Witness votes then

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improv (67) · 5 years ago

Use @tcpolymath as your witness proxy if you oppose hf21

Posted using Partiko Android

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lebastion (55) · 5 years ago

Will do thx for info

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hobo.media (64) · 5 years ago

I don't like the free downvotes addition. However, I can understand the strategy behind the 20 STEEM change. If you think about Youtube, before you can earn any profit from their built-in ad revenue system you have to build up a large enough following first, and if a particular video is interesting to a wide audience it will go viral.

In essence, they are trying to re-engineer the mechanics of Steem to reward viral content. Once something catches on enough to hit that 20 STEEM point there should be a snowball effect that drives it well beyond 20 STEEM. It is an interesting idea, but it is also an experiment. This could go very well or very poorly.

The free downvotes feature does have some interesting effects as well. If enough people truly do hate bidbots, they could theoretically downvote them out of the market. This new change will force bidbots to obtain more of their earnings from curation rewards rather than from upvote fees. So, while in the current state bidbotted content getting a downvote is a loss only for the buyer and not the bot service, now the bidbot service and the content producer will have more aligned interests with regard to downvotes. A potential side-effect might be bidbots utilizing their free votes to retaliate against downvoters on their customers. So, really, we have no idea what will happen here...

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thepen (46) · 5 years ago

However, I can understand the strategy behind the 20 STEEM change. If you think about Youtube, before you can earn any profit

The bar is too high to reach unless you've already bought into the system. Posting a random essay on Steemit will get maybe 20 upvotes and 2.5 STEEM from random people if the content is exceptional. And probably 1 or 2 upvotes for moderate to poor content.

The only way to reach 20 STEEM is to already have the upvotes lined up before posting. I've watched this happen in real time on the Steem Blockchain. A user sends off payments to voting bots, then posts. The votes come in, the post pulls in a 20 to 50 STEEM.

However, in many cases, that 20 to 50 STEEM reward was purchased with about 20 to 50 STEEM. So, what's the point?

Just remove the bid bots and curation timing rewards from the code. Problem solved. The good content will get upvoted by actual humans reading and upvoting.

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luca1777 (60) · 5 years ago

I agree. Like e.g. 5 Steem would have been enough.
Steemit Inc. and everybody working there, plus all the witnesses
should only check one result:
0,16 €
These are the fruits of your labor. It is what it is.
I entered March/April 2018 with 1 Steem= 2,12 €
...thinking that was low, when i heard about the
"golden days" with 1 Steem over 5.-€
Dan Larimers philosophy was "non-violence" in any form.
Are we still on track..?
We will see...

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shokomint (57) · 5 years ago

It's simply disappointing. Rich gets richer. Poor get poorer. The power is distributed among riches, and you still call it "decentralized". It is centralized in riches.

Amazon was praised sometimes because of its long tail strategy that allows books with high quality but not common, accessible to people.
Such books don't bring many sales each, but on the whole, bring a lot.
And now Amazon is so big.
It is not only a matter of sales but also the idealism of promoting "good books" and the variety of books.

I think the change will de-promote the variety of posts, and only the posts talking about bitcoins or whatever popular topics will remain.

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toddfoster (60) · 5 years ago

My biggest worry is the entry for users. I have already seen @thejimmydoreshow @ronplacone @jordanchariton and many other quality posters leave for not getting enough views and upvotes to stay. Giving more back to those with huge upvoting power only lets the power stay there with their little voting circles. Just don’t see how this will help grow @Steem in users or quality. I’ve seen two pictures getting 20 plus steem.

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goldendawne (69) · 5 years ago

I rarely speak out when it comes to technical aspects of anything... but...

Rewards
The rewards curve is changing. We expect posts that would make more than 20 STEEM under the old rules to earn more after the changes. Those posts that would have made less than 20 STEEM under the old rules will receive less after the changes

Isn't this just another case of the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer (struggling)?

Back in the day when steem/SBD was worth a pot to piss in some of my posts would earn over 20 steem (thanks to blocktrades and other various larger accounts who followed me). I had some posts that were near $100. Now I struggle to stay between $5-$10. Granted I took a month off earlier this year when my husband had a heart attack and heart surgery, but since I joined just over two years ago I have been a mainstay, dedicated to posting and commenting... now to be told keep doing what you're doing and you'll get rewarded even less; which makes me want to toss up my hands and say oh well... just another way to work my heart and soul into something only to barely scrape by. I don't willy-nilly post a picture with two sentences and whip on out the door. I make decent posts, share knowledge, share my daily life, etc.

@viking-ventures mentioned curie votes. I've never relied upon curie votes (the reasoning is not relevant to this post or comment). but have had some in the past- early days.

@vikings-venture also mentioned

What's your plan to keep good bloggers around? What's your plan to attract new ones?

So, yes. What about retention? Good payouts, keeping a good line of commenting and communication engaged and positivity to keep people coming back to post.

Reward Split
Reward funding is being changed from the 75/25 split that currently exists, to a 50/50 split between author and curator. That means you will be rewarded significantly more for curating content after the fork

Is this enough to compensate lesser of the rewards? For me yes. I used to do TONS of curating, commenting, etc, but slipped off the wagon last year when real life took some negative turns. So I guess to earn my keep (so to speak), I'll go back to the old ways which seemed to work well for me.

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andrarchy (72) · 5 years ago

Reposting from my comment to @jenina619 who also voiced concern about this being about the rich getting richer:

This is not true. These changes are designed to ensure that good content is more likely to earn more rewards and good curators are more likely to earn more curation rewards. That means that if you're a good content creator, the odds are that your good posts will earn more rewards. It also means that if someone who is just posting low-value posts and self-upvoting them, or using fake accounts to upvote them, they will be much less likely to earn much from that activity. They will also be more likely to earn a downvote now that everyone is getting some free downvotes. This will free up rewards that are being distributed to malicious users who are exploiting the system just so they can cash out, and make those rewards available to good content creators. These changes only impact the rewards pool, which is not distributed based on wealth except when people render self-votes. But these changes are specifically targeted at making self-votes LESS profitable and easier to police. So, in fact, the result should be the exact opposite of "the rich getting richer."

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goldendawne (69) · 5 years ago

These changes only impact the rewards pool, which is not distributed based on wealth except when people render self-votes. But these changes are specifically targeted at making self-votes LESS profitable and easier to police. So, in fact, the result should be the exact opposite of "the rich getting richer."

Thank you for clarifying that information. I appreciate it.
Now I guess we sit back... wait until the clock ticks away for August 27th at 11 AM to arrive.

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hempy (53) · 5 years ago

The ads, the mess of FH20, the crashing currency price, the rich getting richer, the bots, the user unfriendliness, this is a freakin' MESS!
Which is really sad, because it was so close to amazing!!!

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aularluis (61) · 5 years ago

"The rich getting richer."

Aun que intenta disimular que esto es lo contrario en el trasfondo se puede entender como tal ya que como ellos dicen el que gane por encima de 20 steem ganara más y el que gane menos de 20 steem ganara menos en pocas palabra le das más a los ricos y menos a los pobre las ballenas serán más poderosas y cada vez con más poder en cambio los nuevos cada vez serán más pequeño al punto de la extincion me parece una propuesta que podría llevar a la caída de la plataforma como tal por que no se trata de que todos creen contenido de calidad porque si ese fuera el caso todos tuviéramos algo de poder de voto y no tuviéramos que buscar trails y grupos con tal de poder conseguir un simple voto hay personas en esta plataforma que producen contenido increíble y no por eso son tomados en cuenta.

He visto publicaciones admirables y las he votado y mi voto a la final no beneficia en nada al autor ya que su valor es igual a cero y si con estas nuevas reglas los pequeños seremos mas pequeños significa que de nada sirve que cree contenido por que igual la plataforma buscara destruirme en cambio los grandes que invierten y tiene poder ahora seran mucho mas poderosos!. entonces donde esta la ayuda a los pequeños o a los nuevos??

Si tanto quieren ayudar a los creadores de contenido deberian crear reglas que ayuden y no que destruyan lo que puedo observar con esto es que si no gastas dolares para invertir y obtener poder y llegar al nivel de una ballena entonces moriras asi de simple....

En todo lo que he leido aun no he visto algo que aliente a los nuevos o a los pequeños solo se puede leer que que si eres grande seras mas fuerte! quiero hacer una pregunta! Si un usuario realiza contenido de calida quien se encargara de votarlo??? ya de por si hay usuarios esforzandose y si no pertences a un trail y no te publicas en 1000 grupos en el discord no consigues voto! asi de facil. y aun asi tengo publicaciones con 600 votos y solo llego a 0.05 steem y ahora con esto me imagino quedare en 0.00!

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healthexpert (70) · 5 years ago (edited)

What a stupid idea that a post contain more then 20 steem reward will be more rewarded are you kidding ? @steemitblog you mean the upvote bots will be need to make your post beneficial so what will be the future of steemit Why always author has to sacrifice take some rewards from whales and witness

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healthexpert (70) · 5 years ago

Yup. Have a !BEER 🍺

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beerlover (62) · 5 years ago

Sorry, you don't have enough staked BEER in your account. You need 6 BEER in your virtual fridge to give some of your BEER to others. To view or trade BEER go to steem-engine.com

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beerlover (62) · 5 years ago

Sorry, you don't have enough staked BEER in your account. You need 6 BEER in your virtual fridge to give some of your BEER to others. To view or trade BEER go to steem-engine.com

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beerlover (62) · 5 years ago

Sorry, you don't have enough staked BEER in your account. You need 6 BEER in your virtual fridge to give some of your BEER to others. To view or trade BEER go to steem-engine.com

$0.00

beerlover (62) · 5 years ago

Sorry, you don't have enough staked BEER in your account. You need 6 BEER in your virtual fridge to give some of your BEER to others. To view or trade BEER go to steem-engine.com

$0.00

beerlover (62) · 5 years ago

Sorry, you don't have enough staked BEER in your account. You need 6 BEER in your virtual fridge to give some of your BEER to others. To view or trade BEER go to steem-engine.com

$0.00

beerlover (62) · 5 years ago

Sorry, you don't have enough staked BEER in your account. You need 6 BEER in your virtual fridge to give some of your BEER to others. To view or trade BEER go to steem-engine.com

$0.00

beerlover (62) · 5 years ago

Sorry, you don't have enough staked BEER in your account. You need 6 BEER in your virtual fridge to give some of your BEER to others. To view or trade BEER go to steem-engine.com

$0.00

beerlover (62) · 5 years ago

Sorry, you don't have enough staked BEER in your account. You need 6 BEER in your virtual fridge to give some of your BEER to others. To view or trade BEER go to steem-engine.com

$0.00

beerlover (62) · 5 years ago

Sorry, you don't have enough staked BEER in your account. You need 6 BEER in your virtual fridge to give some of your BEER to others. To view or trade BEER go to steem-engine.com

$0.00

beerlover (62) · 5 years ago

Sorry, you don't have enough staked BEER in your account. You need 6 BEER in your virtual fridge to give some of your BEER to others. To view or trade BEER go to steem-engine.com

$0.00

beerlover (62) · 5 years ago

Sorry, you don't have enough staked BEER in your account. You need 6 BEER in your virtual fridge to give some of your BEER to others. To view or trade BEER go to steem-engine.com

$0.00

beerlover (62) · 5 years ago

Sorry, you don't have enough staked BEER in your account. You need 6 BEER in your virtual fridge to give some of your BEER to others. To view or trade BEER go to steem-engine.com

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drutter (69) · 5 years ago

Animal Farm!

Steem has become a centralized, for-profit, blockchain experiment that charges users to post, comment, and vote. Steem is now the opposite of what it claimed it would be.

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epicdave (60) · 5 years ago

Exactly, reminds me of this quote from Animal Farm. “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.”

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epicdave (60) · 5 years ago

This update may discourage many smaller users from contributing to the platform.
Especially with regards to in-depth, niche subjects, and quality posts.

I am lucky if I get 20 votes on a post let alone 20 steem per post, some of my 'science' or foreign aid posts can take months to compile. For example, here's a video that I had commissioned for a conference
6 months of work, dozens of fo people involved. Several tens of thousand views and likes on other platforms but only 7 votes here in Steemit:We must Return: Building the Moon Base. https://steemit.com/dtube/@epicdave/4858lgu0fgw
Same goes for news related text posts "The A.I Medical Revolution?💻: https://steemit.com/science/@epicdave/the-ai-medical-revolution-jg3cambh

No way in Hell are both posts combined close to 20 steem.

It's difficult to grow here on Steem as it is, but these new changes are going to make it next to impossible. It seems like the whales are the priority with this update.

I wonder if these changes will cripple community projects like @actifit ?

Steem has done a lot to empower people from developing nations, those who a few dollars will go a long way in helping. I fear this update will cripple such users and further reward 'whales' ...

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viking-ventures (69) · 5 years ago

One thing I notice as I look through all the comments... something I hope that the "powers that be" notice too...
Almost everyone who has commented is in the 60s or higher in reputation. Not all, obviously. But the point is, these aren't newbies who are complaining or concerned. It's the people who have been around for awhile - have put a lot of effort into supporting Steem, building their accounts, their community - these aren't the "get rich quick" folks.

We're not even saying the whole HF is bad. We're (on the whole) concerned that the ones who are going to hurt the most are the ones that are most needed on this platform - the ones who are dedicated to creating great content - and may not have the money to buy their way to greatness. (I know I don't have the money for that - I've built my account from scratch - with hard work - something I'm quite proud of.)

Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, but please reconsider the fact that probably 90%+ are going to hurt from the 20 Steem break.That's not going to encourage new content creators, nor encourage existing ones to stay. I like the concept, I worry about the details!

(This would also be a great time to prove to everyone that the "powers that be" actually listen to the commoners of Steem.)

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freebornangel (73) · 5 years ago (edited)

The whales could step up and enforce an influence cap, but absent that, I'm not holding out much hope for any but those already favored by the steem haves to stick around.
Why would they, this doubles down on what the 'accountable to stakeholders' witnesses did when they forced linear rewards on us.

Bring back the n2 and a 500mv cap on influence.

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improv (67) · 5 years ago

We should absolutely oppose hf21. Set @tcpolymath as your witness proxy. His system votes only for witnesses running 20

Posted using Partiko Android

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garrettwallace (51) · 5 years ago

Thanks for the update keep up the good work I'm hopeful all go well steem on

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hippie-witha-gun (62) · 5 years ago

Me too, and then they wonder why Steemit is a dying platform

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in2itiveart (69) · 5 years ago

fuck this shit

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planetenamek (63) · 5 years ago

It's not a Hard Fork but rather a Hard Fuck.

_{God save the Queen}

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nitish009 (53) · 5 years ago

This gives a hidden message "Steem is Dead"

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pizzaboy77 (58) · 5 years ago

R.I.P.

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hotsauceislethal (64) · 5 years ago

This is way more exciting than Y2K 💻

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marcybetancourt (71) · 5 years ago

What will happen to users like me? I have never had publications with 20 steem. I work very hard to make quality publications that I present them from time to time but that does not mean that this publication is well voted. I make many manual votes because it is the way to discover interesting users who make magnificent publications. So how do I stay on steemit?

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valerianis (58) · 5 years ago

There are no answers from the team.

Posted using Partiko Android

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marcybetancourt (71) · 5 years ago

And tomorrow is the big change...

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best-trip-eva (58) · 5 years ago

"Reward funding is being changed from the 75/25 split that currently exists, to a 50/50 split between author and curator."
It takes much more time to author something than just to upvote it. That is why I believe the change above is not fair to the people who create content, which is a prerequisite for the curators. No content creators = no work for the curators as well.

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julisavio (69) · 5 years ago

1 question pleaase. We will lose all voting power?

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eastmael (67) · 5 years ago

The rewards curve is changing. We expect posts that would make more than 20 STEEM under the old rules to earn more after the changes. Those posts that would have made less than 20 STEEM under the old rules will receive less after the changes.

I'm expecting for bidbot owners to benefit from this HF.

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steemdevelopment (55) · 5 years ago (edited)

It's more likely to make people question why they will be using them honestly. Since the bot will be getting more of the reward now if you pay them to vote for you. So technically they will be losing money on every bid. Unless the post gets popular.

Users will be losing 15% of the vote worth from bots now. So the bots will have to lower the cost of their votes. Because a 15% loss is not worth it.

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stackin (78) · 5 years ago

Unless bitbots owners will pay them back with the curation they receive or even utilize a token as a payback of Value 🤷🏼‍♂️

Posted using Partiko iOS

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eastmael (67) · 5 years ago (edited)

Good point. Let's see how the community reacts/responds.

Here's another guess. There will be lesser accounts who will be posting.

(No longer part of the guess: The lesser the posts, hopefully the more effective the curation/curators will be)

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pibara (60) · 5 years ago

Small bots will suffer, large bots will thrive. And as for smaller fish, delegating becomes more profitable than using the stake individualy, larger bots will have no problem geting more cheap delegations to grow even bigger..

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swiftcash (64) · 5 years ago

If they don't change their rules, yes; @swiftcash will change its rule to keep bought upvotes profitable for buyers with a minimum of +1% return of their money.

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freepressturkey (52) · 5 years ago

THIS IS HOW I READ “Hardfork 21 is HAPPENING. What will change?”

“The rewards curve is changing. We expect posts that would make more than 20 STEEM under the old rules to earn more after the changes. Those posts that would have made less than 20 STEEM under the old rules will receive less after the changes.” Means: do not waste your time in dealing with the posts of minnows, just concentrate on the post of whales. It is obvious that the poor minnows will not be able to bribe bots or delegate power to auto upvote accounts, so their posts will be under 20 Steem, which will give insignificant currations reward. As a poor plankton or minnow, instead of reading, commenting, upvoting, resteeming each others’ post, contributing the wealth of the wealthy is more profitable. The ramnants of the dinner of whales are much more than you can find in the garbages in the streets”
“Reward funding is being changed from the 75/25 split that currently exists, to a 50/50 split between author and curator. That means you will be rewarded significantly more for curating content after the fork.” Means: Stay where you are. Do not even try to move up to a higher class. You can not move either. All your fellows are serving the richest, and feeding from the junks of their tables. If you don’t, you will starve. There are no food left in the garbages at the street. If you are stubborn and continue to struggle we have to remind you that the change of 75/25 to 50/50 split also involves downvotes. We have strict rules here. We have downvote bots here that will blacklist you and downvote your content before you will have time to learn the rules. We do not have to bother ourselves to downvote you personally, delegating a small percentage of our SP then voting their repplies are enough. From then on they will downvote every of your post even you create the best content in the history of the platform. If you want to get rid of being in the blacklist you have to beg them in the discord. It serves two puposes: 1. We entertain from your humiliation. 2. You must get used to be humiliated in order to know your place. You see we took all precautions to prevent you from climbing the ledder. As we climbed earlier we are now pushing the ledder back. Still not enough? Check this:
“A downvote mana pool is being added, which will allow you –actually we- to make a few downvotes each day without impacting your –actually our- ability to earn curation rewards from upvotes.”
CONCLUSION AND MY COMMENT
Being an early adopter of any cryptocurrency, including Steem is highly advantageous, and those early adopters hundred percent deserve all those advanteges because of their high vision. I even think that all the people dealing with cryptocurrencies today are even not early adopters, but innovators. When at least 5% of the world population start to to deal with cryptocurrencies, the one in the 4th or 5th will be early adoptors. We are innovators today.
I am sincerely in favour of getting richer of every innovator here, and getting more richer of earlier innovators (whales) of Steem. They deserve it for having high vision. However, the road of getting richer of innovators or early adopters is in just one direction: MASS ADOPTION. Otherwise everyone of us here would mint a coin, hold 100% of it in our hands and wait for being rich one day.  If we move in the direction of mass adoption, the value of Steem will increase, and everyone will win. If the platform moves in the wrong direction, we will see drowning whales in a small pool. They will hold all of the Steem themselves but the price of Steem will be wortless.
Power be with you Steemians, and I am sorry if there are spelling and grammer mistakes in my repply. I am not a native English speaker.

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stealthtrader (67) · 5 years ago

So 20 STEEM right now would be around $4.04 according to https://steemitwallet.com/market

steem 20.PNG

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acidyo (80) · 5 years ago

Not exactly as SBD is only worth $0.85 right now.

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stealthtrader (67) · 5 years ago

Yeah I got closer to $3.48 when I did the math to USD.

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drakos (70) · 5 years ago

You forgot to mention SPS !

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bozz (70) · 5 years ago

Who the hell writes posts that make over 20 STEEM? Certainly not the majority of us.

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fiveart (46) · 5 years ago

What about stopping @steemit powerdown? It's draining the ecosystem. A Hardfork can solve that, or I'm wrong?

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hornet-on-tour (61) · 5 years ago

I am sorry but that is too high and too complex for me. To be honest, I see no benefit to me as a small fish.

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liudasbutkus (52) · 5 years ago

So, essentially 99% of people will earn less now. That's one hell of an update.

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krischik (61) · 5 years ago

We expect posts that would make more than 20 STEEM under the old rules to earn more after the changes. Those posts that would have made less than 20 STEEM under the old rules will receive less after the changes.

That is the opposite of which is needed. This just horrible. Worth then I imagined.

I'm lost for word to explain my disappointing. Yet another hard fork to kick the small users in the gut.

I can't with good conscience suggest to anyone to create an account. I now know understand why Steem is down to €0.169.

You just pander to the whales and hate new users. But you know what: With that HF you finally slaughter the goose that lays the golden eggs.

I'll expect steem to now fall faster in value than new steem is created.

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garthfreeman (56) · 5 years ago

So the whale circle jerk will increase.

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liudasbutkus (52) · 5 years ago

Also, these ads look like you have come to a spam website. User experience much...

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vikvitnik (61) · 5 years ago

¿Alguien sabe si el HF21 se trasladará hacia las tribus?

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serialfiller (73) · 5 years ago

I Am disappointed.
I wrote this post for you guys https://steemit.com/steemit/@serialfiller/august-27th-the-day-when-steemit-died

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salihacinar03 (43) · 5 years ago

Selam steemit türkç dilede çevrilse memnun oluruz iyi akşamlar

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outtheshellvlog (61) · 5 years ago

Ok, so let me get this straight through scenario in regards to awards, curation, etc.

If someone is a regular poster that posts decent quality content, they're likely to be curated more as the system encourages curation, and thus lower quality posts will receive less. Thus clogging up the system with less garbage or (shit posts) getting rewarded for being shit and encouraging good or decent content with effort put into it to be able to potentially earn more through the means of encouraging more manual curation.

On one hand, this could get rid of many of the issues of trash posts managing to rake in some decent steem somehow, but on the other hand, it could very easily also be a massive screw you to the lower staked accounts and their content for no reason other than not being big enough to start out.

I think I see what's going on but I need to experiment with the new hard fork once it's live and with it's kinks worked out before I make a video showcase about how this works and all that jazz.

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samic (64) · 5 years ago (edited)

Those gloomy characters, those who believe themselves to be gods but who really are nobody outside, they will have their black oasis here, they are so so anxious to put those negative votes, they urgently need to express their arrogance, this is like putting a bandage on the mouth to the masses. Great breakthrough Sirs founders! I hope steemit doesn't stay deserted again.

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dmcamera (61) · 5 years ago

Thanks for that great explanation! Not sure I like the 20 Steem rule though. I spend a lot of time on my posts which are 100% my own including the photography. I struggle as it is relying only on the Upvotes of others and not bidbots. Also, reducing the author’s share from 75% hardly seems fair given the long hours that go into many posts. Not sure if I’m liking the changes at all if I am understanding them correctly.

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flemingfarm (68) · 5 years ago (edited)

Would be nice to know how screwed I will be with actual numbers that relate to me and all the other little people. I have had 3 or 4 post EVER make 20+ steem in 3 years on here. My curation per week is maybe 2 steem and my author rewards are 30ish steem. So I am looking at getting 4 steem in curation and 20 steem in author rewards? This all seems like it is forcing a lot more work to try and make any where near what we were before without buying votes to try and increase our share of the pool.

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birchmark (59) · 5 years ago

Some of this sounds good and some of it doesn't. One thing that doesn't sound good is making posts that earn less than 20 steem be worth even less. YouTube is terrible for supporting small creators; Steem hasn't been. If you make the smaller people's posts worth less you are taking away one of the biggest advantages of Steem over other platforms - that is supports the little guys better than places like YouTube do.

I've personally made posts that earn more than 20 Steem, and I've made posts that have earned less than 20 steem. The ones the earned less weren't on average, lower effort or lower quality. I know this would be true for other people too. I'm not sure if this is an effort to discourage non-content and spam etc, but the fact is, things aren't upvoted / rewarded in proportion to effort or quality and this move will do little to discourage non-content and spam but will be detrimental to small creators. Steem is still a shittonne better than YouTube is in this regard, but being better than YouTube shouldn't be the standard to aim for, as that still sets the bar for being good to and rewarding small creators pretty damn low. This move is still a move in the wrong direction for a platform that is overall pretty decent to small creators.

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patriamreminisci (58) · 5 years ago

HF 20: "I was the worst thing the developers of STEEM could do to fuck up the experience of using Steemit."

HF 21: "Hold my beer."

I mean, first of all, the reward curve change is an absolutely undisguised way for whales to get richer while everyone else struggles harder to make less. The explanation of "boosting quality content" is absolutely laughable because it takes a special kind of fool to think the number of votes you get on this site is based on the quality of your work. It's the amount of sycophants you have following you around in hopes of getting a curator reward. And speaking of that, you are ENCOURAGING this behavior by increasing the curator reward at the expense of the one who actually creates the content!

Congratulations on managing to decimate everything that ever gave this platform a God-damned snowball's prayer in Hell of ever being useful.

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jerrytsuseer (67) · 5 years ago

I may as well leave steemit then:

We expect posts that would make more than 20 STEEM under the old rules to earn more after the changes. Those posts that would have made less than 20 STEEM under the old rules will receive less after the changes.

NONE of my posts make more than a few cents each, unless eSteem
Or some generous person upvotes me.
It took me almost 2 yrs to get enough steem to make a cash out
Worthwhile, so I could FINALLY SAY I had made some
REAL HARD USD for posting online. Since then I've been
Slowly building my bank back up.
This is so very very discouraging to me. I may as well give up.

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frankvvv (65) · 5 years ago

"Rewards

WTF seriously. 20 Steem?

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spirajn (61) · 5 years ago

WTF!?

We expect posts that would make more than 20 STEEM under the old rules to earn more after the changes. Those posts that would have made less than 20 STEEM under the old rules will receive less after the changes.

Are you just kicking out all the creators with little money that could contribute so much to the platform, but don't get too much attention?!

Are you aware that every creator that receives now less than 20 STEEM per post will have no reason to stay here and contribute?

This seems a hard fork made for the richest.

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maciejficek (55) · 5 years ago

Im not satisfied with that propositions. You are helping paid bots and trolls and users which are morally fair will be fucked. It seems like other crypto want to destroy STEEM.

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djslurk (52) · 5 years ago

This seems like a catastrophically bad idea, for the reasons Calluna mentioned.

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rawpride (62) · 5 years ago

Nobody wants this, but it doesn't matter what people want. It's going through anyways.

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izlude (39) · 5 years ago

will they add a collections feature like what used to be on G+ ??

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bravocoin (32) · 5 years ago

Come over to BravoCoin! We forked Steem at HF19 and created a mobile review platform for iOS/Android where users earn coins for their reviews of restaurants, hotels, movies, video games, coins, exchanges, dApps and more! Many refer to us as "Crypto Yelp"!

100% free to join, come experience the #BRAVOLUTION

Reply with your BRAVO username and i'll send you 10 additional BRAVO!

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gogreenbuddy (66) · 5 years ago

Great piece but noticed a typo..

"Reward funding is being changed from a 50/50 split between author and curation reward from the 75/25 split that currently exists''

The first from should be a the

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tarazkp (80) · 5 years ago

No it shouldn't.

"Reward funding is being changed from a 50/50 split between author and curation reward from the 75/25 split that currently exists''

but it should be:

"Reward funding is being changed to a 50/50 split between author and curation reward from the 75/25 split that currently exists''

or better yet:

"Reward funding is being changed from the current 75/25 split between author and curation reward, to a 50/50 split''

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acidyo (80) · 5 years ago

#schooled

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sathyasankar (63) · 5 years ago

Right! Thank you!

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abitcoinskeptic (73) · 5 years ago

How can you be concerned with that errata, but not this one?

but in today’s post we would like to help you understand what you can expect on 11:00 AM Tuesday morning when the hardfork occurs.

at 11:00 AM on Tuesday =)

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sohodlers (25) · 5 years ago

Hope this FH would make Steemit a better place.

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jacobtothe (70) · 5 years ago (edited)

I apprpreciate the heads-up before these changes go into effect, but I am deeply concerned that these reward changes may just incentivise more bid bot abuse. Hopefully the free flags will help counteract that.

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daveks (77) · 5 years ago

Is the vote window changing from 15 min to 1 min. Can someone confirm this?

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onthewayout (59) · 5 years ago

Yes it is

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freebornangel (73) · 5 years ago

5 minutes.

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cardboard (61) · 5 years ago

Hi @freebornangel - can you show me a place where I can verify it? I thought it's gonna be 1 min.

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https://steemit.com/hf21/@aggroed/pwchhy

freebornangel (73) · 5 years ago

yep

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cardboard (61) · 5 years ago

Thanks! !tip 0.3 hide

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https://github.com/steemit/steem/releases/tag/v0.21.0

justinw (60) · 5 years ago

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freebornangel (73) · 5 years ago

Thanks.

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cardboard (61) · 5 years ago

Thanks! !tip 0.3 hide

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msg768 (65) · 5 years ago (edited)

Hey man! Do you know what happens to the old posts that haven't got paid yet after HF21? I have a post that will get paid after HF21 on which I bought an upvote from tipu. If the new rules apply, then I'll get a lot less for the upvote I bought! And I won't be the only one! Since curators will get 50% after HF21 :/

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cardboard (61) · 5 years ago

Yep, it seems that those posts will be paid under new rules. But not only 50/50 but also non linear reward curve - so you might get more or less, depending on post value.

At least you got the tipu profit sharing tokens, those will work the same :)

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Show 3 more replies

cardboard (61) · 5 years ago (edited)

Hi @justinw - I have one more question :)
Currently if I want to calculate my upvote value, it's basically:
(upvote_rshares / recent claims) * reward_pool

Can you give me a little guidance where I can find info how this would look after hf21? The new reward curve is:
n^2/(n+1)
So
n = (upvote_rshares / recent claims)?
Probably not because the n+1 doesn't make sens then.

Edit: OK, solved, found this guy :D https://steemit.com/steem/@jga

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onthewayout (59) · 5 years ago

Thanks for the correction

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freebornangel (73) · 5 years ago

Np, just keeping folks on the same page.

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freebornangel (73) · 5 years ago

5 minutes.

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daveks (77) · 5 years ago

Thanks!

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freebornangel (73) · 5 years ago

Yep.
Np.

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thoughts-in-time (64) · 5 years ago

So, what your saying is that if enough witnesses do
not implement the new hardfork, it won't happen.
This means that it's not a forgone conclusion, right?

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joeyarnoldvn (61) · 5 years ago (edited)

Super-Majority:

I can talk for days. I like how forks seem to work if there is a super majority, a consensus between the witnesses.

Steemit Republic

Instead of being merely a mob-ruling democracy, the Steem Witness System appears to be like an electronic constitutional (blockchain) republic to some extent I'm hoping which I prefer and we do better as we try to go that direction as humans.

Western Civilization

I promote free markets and I promote walls, borders, countries. Family First. Community First. Country First. Having two Steem pools might be better. I'm skeptical but it may help a little. The 50-50 reward balance between content curators and authors may encourage increased engagement, activity, where people may curate more and may share (resteem) or retweet more. So, long story short, some things might be improving with Hard Fork 21 (HF21). I love the way that Hard Fork is explained here in this article on Steemit. I'm Oatmeal. Good work.

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spiritabsolute (59) · 5 years ago

How about taking away the opportunity to delegate steem power? Let everyone manage his own power. This will block the ability to generate a large number of tokens to accounts accumulating a lot of power.

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cardboard (61) · 5 years ago (edited)

Hi @steemitblog

What is the actual curation window now? I am hearing that it has been changed again to 5 minutes now, but no official info about it :(

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https://github.com/steemit/steem/releases/tag/v0.21.0

justinw (60) · 5 years ago

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fieryfootprints (60) · 5 years ago

"..posts that would make more than 20 STEEM under the old rules to earn more after the changes. Those posts that would have made less than 20 STEEM under the old rules will receive less.."

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whyaskwhy (60) · 5 years ago

Alot of SP, therefore curating powers are lying fallow in dormant accounts.

This fork ought to incorporate the use of these fallow stock , to the advantage of the entire steemit community!!

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haccolong (61) · 5 years ago

I feel this HF time to serve the bigger fish than for the community. What we need is the dispersion of Steem instead of concentration. But with what happens next, maybe the network will be more focused.

The 50/50 bonus may not encourage newcomers to join the network and does not encourage content creation.
More than 20 STEEM will receive more incentive to use BOT => to benefit bigger fish.

I'm really disappointed about this HF time!

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imran-bloggy (65) · 5 years ago (edited)

other social media giving 0 reward although users are increasing. so that mean 50/50 bonus will nenver effect for true content creators. check out top 20 coins in the market , those coins are available easy to earn? only steem you can earn easily. And this is the reason that steem coin is cheap But you people never deserve this opportunity. shame on you who protesting hard fork and blaming steem team.

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krischik (61) · 5 years ago

Unless you are at least a dolphin steem isn't paying out as well. You just stay below the dust value and get 0 as well.

But other social media give you real engagement. Something you don't get here either — unless you are at least a dolphin.