Many (probably nearly everyone) comes to fascism as a way to make money from controlling the population. @hitler has currently found a way to do that better than anyone else currently in this country.
also it is actually with violence. Making a profit without work means others must get what they produced taken away. That is done through wage labor, which is only kept in existence through violence.
this book explains it well
On Steemit it isn't done with wage labor, so your point about violence isn't valid in this case.
Since Steemit is entirely voluntary, no potential violence exists. However, there is an indirect promotion of violence, as I do make money from labor, and so by decreasing the rewards I am able to generate on a platform where I can do so without being subject to the violence of the state, then I am prompted to rely more on my wage labor subject to that violence.
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Starve or work for the ruling class. It doesn't matter if you choose where you work it's not voluntary by definition.
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I am no good at either, having tried both.
I like to fix stuff for the people I work for, so I do the work. I like to leave behind a trailer, for example, that was uninhabitable when I got there, and now the landlady of the trailer park is jelly of how nice it is.
I leave a legacy of improvements that benefit those I get to serve. I don't do work for 'the man' although I have personally been literally worked as a slave, for more than three years. Forced labor without pay, under pain of death - actual slavery.
I lived through not because I am particularly fond of myself, but because my kids are fond of me, and would have been devastated by my loss. It was a lot of trouble to endure for them, but they are worth it to me.
The crackers in the trailer park are about as far from the ruling class as I can get, so that's why I work to improve their lot.
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Paging @commentwealth...come in @commentwealth, do you read? Over.
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what is commentwealth
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It's a new account that tries to upvote quality comments that will probably be lost otherwise (several layers deep, etc.)
Steemit's reward pool is, indeed, a zero-sum game. For every over-rewarded whale, there are 1000 minnows who quit and do not buy Steem. That's why I liked your comment.
Making people work more for another to earn unjust reward is several layers removed from direct violence, but it's still basically an extrapolated form of slavery.
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Well said. This discussion is fun to read =)
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"Making people work more for another to earn unjust reward is several layers removed from direct violence, but it's still basically an extrapolated form of slavery."
forcing somebody to do something at gun point is a layer or two away from violence.
"Steemit's reward pool is, indeed, a zero-sum game."
Payment for labor itself is a zero-sum game. That makes everything that comes out of capitalism one.
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It seems like you think I'm arguing with you; I wasn't. I don't get your first point.
Payment for labor is not zero sum, that's silly. If I pay you $10 to produce a widget and I sell that widget for $20, we both gained, as did whichever market participant wanted the widget enough to pay for it.
If all human labor were a zero sum game, we'd still be living in grass huts...or caves.
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Payment for labor is what I said.
I produce a $20 object out of goods worth $10. The value of my labor is $10. To get a profit the owner must pay me less than $10. If he does not his business tanks.
The only way to get profit is to pay less than the labor is worth. That is zero sum.
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There is no such thing as a $20 object. If you think so, we cannot reconcile, because you are adhering to demonstrably false nonsense like the labor theory of value.
It's just so easy to disprove your philosophical underpinnings a literal child could do it.
I have a glass of water in front of me. You try to sell me a bottle of water. How much of a good is it? 0$
Now I'm in the desert dying of thirst. How much of a good is it? $10000.
I can't believe anyone is still a communist past first grade.
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"There is no such thing as a $20 object. "
That's because money isn't based on value its based on price. Labor is used to measure value, like I said a few hundred times lmao retard.
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"I can't believe anyone is still a communist past first grade."
you see that massive crash right there? It took 10-15 years to fix, even though they had far better technology. Do you want to know what caused it? The USSR turning capitalist.
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"I have a glass of water in front of me. You try to sell me a bottle of water. How much of a good is it? 0$
Now I'm in the desert dying of thirst. How much of a good is it? $10000."
price vs value, still.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value
now read this or fuck off
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That's not zero-sum, you're being deliberately reductive.
The owner has access to markets, marketing, distribution that allows him to get a much higher price for a good than the laborer does.
You can try to sell your wood furniture for $100 as a craftsman at a flea market and waste your time on sales, marketing, returns and all kinds of crap.
Or you can make it for Rooms To Go and let them handle that shit.
It's not always zero sum, it depends on the individual relationship.
Painting with such broad strokes (and incessantly arguing with everyone, even those philosophically disposed to your side) just pushes people away from your philosophy even more.
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"and incessantly arguing with everyone, even those philosophically disposed to your side"
What? You are arguing for capitalism, without an understanding of the labor theory of value either.
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"The owner has access to markets, marketing, distribution that allows him to get a much higher price for a good than the laborer does."
yes, because he has enough power to control the property. Also the majority of businesses pay somebody to do that.
"It's not always zero sum, it depends on the individual relationship."
either he gets what he gets the equivalent of what he produces or he doesn't.
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" I don't get your first point."
To sum it up, it doesn't matter how many layers of abstraction it has, the threat of violence is still violence.
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OK, what I didn't get was that I was clearly agreeing with you, and you seemed to be arguing with me.
I guess I needed to be more clear. You seem argumentative.
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"OK, what I didn't get was that I was clearly agreeing with you, and you seemed to be arguing with me."
it doesn't matter how much you agree with some of my points if I don't agree with those you add on. It seems like you only think about your position in this.
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"It seems like you think I'm arguing with you"
That might not have been your goal but debate is one of the few ways to achieve a true understanding of anything.
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It was neither the goal or the outcome, and your deliberately reductive, absolutist argumentation style is intellectually dishonest. (See my other comment on zero-sum, which you falsely asserted all commerce is against demonstrable, clear fact).
In your world, all laborers are apparently equally skilled at sales, a completely different and unrelated skills. The division of labor is not a thing you believe in, apparently.
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"and your deliberately reductive, absolutist argumentation style is intellectually dishonest. (See my other comment on zero-sum, which you falsely asserted all commerce is against demonstrable, clear fact)."
You overcomplicate basic concepts. The value of an object is what it takes to create it, not the amount society wishes to pay for it. In an economy without waste it would directly hit this value. The problem is that in markets either too much or too little is created, because people are always in search of profit. You speak of this problem from a capitalist standpoint and refuse to see it from any other.
Humans produce only have the ability to produce so many resources. A single person only produces so much value. If this value, measured in the amount of labor it takes to produce (this is the only real measurement of value), is not matched the worker is gaining more than he produces or less. Profit can only come out of labor. This means with profit it is impossible for the worker to get everything he produces. In other words there is only so much labor, and it is split between the ruling class and the workers who produce it. This fits neatly into the definition of zero sum.
Opportunities do not affect the value of labor, only the price. From a value standpoint this makes the relationship authoritarian and oppressive.
I never argued about price, just value. You are the one being deliberately reductive. We are debating economics so we must find the value that connects all systems, not reduce it to a neo-liberal economic ideal.
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"In your world, all laborers are apparently equally skilled at sales, a completely different and unrelated skills. The division of labor is not a thing you believe in, apparently."
nope. Wrong. That is dishonest and is assuming much.
The value of everything is the amount of socially necessary labor taken to create it. I don't care about the price you can sell it at.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_theory_of_value
here is some reading on it.
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